Comments You Will Not Hear at the 6-19-05 WT Study (Resurrection 3)

by blondie 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  ozziepost

  Joesph seems to have gotten a raw deal! The dubs say that even after death, he suffers- his wife's left him!
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  Will Power

  Also....

  In every acct where the bible explains that there won't be any marrying etc after the resurrection...the next passages say that ABRAHAM'S God is a GOD OF THE LIVING.

  Abraham is obviously physically dead by the time Jesus says this. Why would Jesus stress the GOD of the LIVing if he wasn't trying to explain the life after death thing - answering those sceptic's questions about the resurrection and they being like angels....?

  \wp
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  blondie

  I guess I wasn't clear. I has been four years since I've been to a meeting.

  will power, the WTS teaches that no one who died before Jesus went to heaven in 33 CE to present the value of the ransom sacrficie to God, would expect to go to heaven. The WTS says that Joseph had died even before Jesus was anointed as the Messiah. Even John the Baptist who died before 33 CE, and the evildoer who died on the same day as Christ, are presented as only have the hope of life on earth.

  The WTS teaches that no one who died before Jesus did in 33 CE went to heaven.

  Now I know that other religions and individuals believe differently.

  If everyone who died before Jesus had the heavenly hope, I think the 144,000 number was already filled by the time Christ arrived the first time.

  Of course, if you believe 144,000 is a finite number.

  Love, Blondie
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  ozziepost

  More like a fanciful number, eh?
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  OldSoul

  Anyone get the feeling that the CCoJW is preparing the flock to die before Armageddon? That was the general consensus in a discussion the other day. The thought was expressed, "I expected to be among the 'Millions Now Living' that 'Will Never Die'! Now that I have studied this article, I'm not so sure." I said, "Well, the ones who heard that talk in 1918 thought they would be among those who would never die. Actuarial tables would strongly suggest there aren't millions of them still alive."

  Then I had to explain what an actuarial table is. Awake! never had an article discussing that, apparently.

  Thanks again, Blondie! I look forward to this every week.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  Will Power

  Sorry to add more of the bible - but it just amazes me how much the WT just ignores in order to create their own versions.

  Aside from 1 Cor 15:50-52 ...Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we WILL ALL be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

  What kind of kingdom do the JWs teach if flesh & blood are not of the kingdom of God?

  Who were the saints that were raised as Jesus yielded up his spirit. Surely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah would be considered among them? ..Matt 27:50-53 ....52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

  or the parable Jesus told of the rich man & lazarus in luke: 16:22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom;(the Talmud mentions both paradise and A's bosom as the home of the righteous, where they go to await future vindication) and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifed up his eyes being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. (how can he feel torment by WT teachings?)

  I don't remember the script, but there are also the ones who are under the altar crying who have been waiting for Christ to come & free them and rejoice.

  wp
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  heathen

  Actually I do agree that the people that lived prior to jesus do not have the hope of co rulership with christ which is the whole point of the little flock doctrine anyway . Just like jesus told the criminal that he would be with him in paradise instead of offering him the same reward he offered the apostles of sitting at his right hand . I think the WTBTS srews the facts up pretty good on other details of these prophesies . Revelation is pretty clear that only those that die faithful as martyrs qualify for co rulership . I think those that are alive in Pauls writings to meet the lord in the air are likely to be the great crowd after considering what John was saying . Just exactly how they are changed is not exsplained but often that scripture is used to support a rapture doctrine . I think the bible is clear that the kingdom of the heavens descends on earth and there is no beaming of people up to it . I can also agree that people that were anointed in the first century did not always remain faithful and were considered to be spiritual rejects but they could always use the get out of jail free card of repentance to gain favor again . The dubs still have alot invested in the 1914 dogma so I can't see them dropping it altogether , I'm not saying it impossible either but that the evidence in support of it is shaky .

  Heathen of the invisibility is not evidence class .......
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  Blueblades

  If 'The Ransom Teaching' is wrong, then, these three articles on the Resurrection are mute. Blondie, I know that you are doing a great review of 'comments you will not hear' and this alone makes what the Watchtower teaches on these doctrines mute, to say the least. As you know Alanf has a great article disputing the Ransom Teaching as I made note of in your last review. So far I have not read a rebuttal of Alan's article, have you, I would be interested to read it.

  Blueblades
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  blondie

  Well, blueblades that might be good for a separate topic. I try only to rebut what is in the article for the week. As you said there is not much discussion of the ransom sacrifice this week.

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/ransom.htm

  Of course, the ransom sacrifice is not exclusively a WTS teaching though they have their own slant on it.

  Anyone is free to read AlanF's development of the topic on a separate thread and comment on a separate thread.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/post.ashx

  I'm sure some draw the conclusion there was no need for a ransom, thus no need for Christ, thus no Christ, and eventually no God. I'm not prepared to take that route at this time, maybe never. But I feel that is something that does not impede my comments or that of others. I'm interested in dismantling faulty reasoning specific to the WTS.

  On the topic of the resurrection, how many knew that the WTS originally taught that none of the early Christians were resurrected until 1878 and then adjusted that to 1918?

  Here is the closest comment in a WT publication that indicates a rapture.

  w79 6/15 pp. 30-31 Living Now in That "Last Day" of Resurrection ***

  In modern times, the revived, reactivated remnant of spiritual Israelites who took up the witness work again in the spring of 1919 were those whom the apostle Paul spoke of as "we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord." (1 Thess. 4:15) They expect, after finishing the final Kingdom witness world wide, to die "in union with the Lord" and during his presence. Their death is during that "last day" during which, as Jesus said, he would raise up from the dead those disciples who are privileged to feed on his flesh and drink his blood. This signifies for them their being "caught away" to meet him, their Lord, "in the air." This instantaneous resurrection of theirs to heavenly life is unseen to humans left behind on earth as if it were obscured by "clouds." "Happy," indeed, they are because they "die in union with the Lord from this time onward" during the "presence of the Lord," not needing to sleep in death in expectation of his second coming.—Rev. 14:13; John 6:53, 54; 1 Cor. 15:52, 53.

  Many Christian companions, a "great crowd" of them, are left behind. During this "time of the end" and during the invisible "presence of the Lord" they have become colaborers with the remnant of spiritual Israelites in the final Kingdom witness to all the nations. This "great crowd" expects to survive the "great tribulation" in which this worldly system of things perishes. (Rev. 7:9, 14) Thus they will be on hand when the happy time arrives for the last ones of the remnant of spiritual Israelites to "be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thess. 4:17) How loving it would be for the "great crowd" living in that last day of resurrection to bid farewell to the surviving remnant as these finish their earthly course at the close of the "last day"! (John 6:53, 54) This may be no easy parting, but it could be accompanied by a heartfelt interchange of affection between those departing and those left behind on a paradise earth. No more will the "great crowd" see them.

  If you consider that some of the GB are in their early 50's and if the end came tomorrow as they hope, these men would have at least another 30 to 40 more years to live out on earth. But the WTS teaches that the marriage of the Bride takes place shortly after Babylon the Great is destroyed. Does that mean that some of the anointed won't be there for the wedding or will they have to die an early, unnatural death?

  Hmmm

  Blondie
• 

  heathen

  I'm sure some draw the conclusion there was no need for a ransom, thus no need for Christ, thus no Christ, and eventually no God. ; I'm not prepared to take that route at this time, maybe never. ; But I feel that is something that does not impede my comments or that of others. ; I'm interested in dismantling faulty reasoning specific to the WTS.

  I'm with you there . I will never believe that man evolved from ape or that the universe was nothing more than a huge explosion making planets and stars by complete accident . NO friggen way on that ...

  In modern times, the revived, reactivated remnant of spiritual Israelites who took up the witness work again in the spring of 1919 were those whom the apostle Paul spoke of as "we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord." (1 Thess. 4:15) They expect, after finishing the final Kingdom witness world wide, to die "in union with the Lord" and during his presence. Their death is during that "last day" during which, as Jesus said, he would raise up from the dead those disciples who are privileged to feed on his flesh and drink his blood. This signifies for them their being "caught away" to meet him, their Lord, "in the air." This instantaneous resurrection of theirs to heavenly life is unseen to humans left behind on earth as if it were obscured by "clouds." "Happy," indeed, they are because they "die in union with the Lord from this time onward" during the "presence of the Lord," not needing to sleep in death in expectation of his second coming.—Rev. 14:13; John 6:53, 54; 1 Cor. 15:52, 53.

  This sounds like a complete load of crap . According to them there is no immortality of the soul but isn't that what they are saying here ? Personally I don't think any resurrection has taken place yet and will not until christ returns in kingdom power .