Hard Evidence of Life After Death, is there any?

by Blueblades 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  tetrapod.sapien

  I know there is some kind of intelligent spirit life form. I've seen evidence of it with my own eyes

  flying,

  of course this is the age old interpretation, isn't it? "i've seen it with my own eyes." and who can dispute? one guy sees something, interprets it, and next thing you know, it's 4000 years later and everyone believes that the guy got his interpretation right. it's called magical thinking, and it doesn't seem to be disappearing from our species any time soon. spirit entities figure largely in our mythology. now, and back when the rainman was trying to explain the thunder that came with the rain.

  + =
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  free2beme

  So the question is . . . Is there life . . . after the termination of life?

  I am more prone to wonder, "is life the physical or the spiritual?" Are we really just a balance of the right chemicals and nerve endings to wonder, or is there more to it then that? I think that the physical dies, I think the spiritual lives on until it decides to take new paths.
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  tetrapod.sapien

  I think that the physical dies, I think the spiritual lives on until it decides to take new paths.

  hey free,

  but, how do you know this?

  i don't mean to pick on you. but it is the answer to this very question that keeps me debating these things. i have never been satisfied.
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  free2beme

  I think this is a possible, but do not know it to be true. For me, to at least think of the possible is better then closing the door to wonder or maybe all together. However, if you are asking "do I have enough faith to die for my thoughts?" No, I think in any sense that life is worth riding to the full, in case the other side is the ghetto side of town and we wish we were back in the rich neighborhood. My mind however can not seem to put my arms around and grab the idea that death is pure nothingness.
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  FlyingHighNow

  
  

  I know there is some kind of intelligent spirit life form. I've seen evidence of it with my own eyes

  flying,
  
  

  of course this is the age old interpretation, isn't it? "i've seen it with my own eyes." and who can dispute? one guy sees something, interprets it, and next thing you know, it's 4000 years later and everyone believes that the guy got his interpretation right. it's called magical thinking, and it doesn't seem to be disappearing from our species any time soon. spirit entities figure largely in our mythology. now, and back when the rainman was trying to explain the thunder that came with the rain.
  
  + =

  
  I call it a spirit because I could not see it and neither could the other five people there. It did not speak to us either. It did however understand English and do what I asked it to. It didn't do exactly what I had pictured in my mind though, so I figure it didn't read my mind either. Now, I call it a spirit, not a ghost because I don't know if it was a ghost. I don't know if ghosts, disembodied deceased former human beings, exist. When I say spirit I mean a being that is not visible to the human eye, but never the less obviously exists and is intelligent.
  
  Spirit person or invisible intelligent being, it all boils down to semantics.I kind of doubt anyone will know I existed, 400 years from now, much less care whether or not I call an other worldy being a spirit or not. Sometimes I think you just argue because you like to argue.
  

  
  it's called magical thinking

  It's called for lack of a better term that everyone will understand.
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  tetrapod.sapien

  flying,

  interesting description of your experience.

  Sometimes I think you just argue because you like to argue.

  do not!

  seriously.
• 

  LittleToe

  Tetra:

  You're quite well aware that science hypothesises that there are other dimensions than the four that our physical senses appear to exist in. Why is it so difficult to believe that some part of us exisits in those other dimensions?

  The question, from the perspective of those who believe in the super-natural, is whether or not those parts continue to exist after the physical form corrupts. To take Derek's analogy again, of the car falling offf the cliff (albiet it doesn't really go far enough for me) - is anything salvagable and in good working order, like the battery and computer system?

  it is precisely from what little i do understand about consciousness, and what i know of the "physical vehicle" that creates incredulity in me regarding the supernatural.

  So in one breath you acknowledge, along with the rest of science, that there's a dearth of information on the subject, and on the other you take a stance that all other hypothesis must be wrong because they don't fit into your worldview?

  A question for you, borrowing a line from Gyles - do you find yourself having to keep reinforcing that worldview? I certainly know of few people who have to reinforce the idea of life after death, regardless of beliefs or lack thereof.

  if science shows that physical life and consciousness ends with the death of the brain, then any claims of life after death imply, very logically, that something supernatural has had interaction with the physical.

  And the difficulty with this would be? (btw, you haven't demonstrated that death of the brain causes physical consciousness to cease - you've accepted a "best guess" that conflicts with the "best guess" of others, and also, please bear in mind that my definition of supernatural is that which is not apprehended by the "natural" or physical)? Perchance is it, it's supernatural therefore it can't exist, and it can't exist because it's supernatural? Circular reasoning at best!

  We're all acutely aware that there are things which occur that we have little or no proper explanation for. Man is only just starting to grapple with the concepts of Quantum Physics and String Theory. Just because mankind has had "placeholders" for certain activity, for as long as there's been history, doesn't mean that we need to dissolve said "placeholders" in the absence of no information. Give me better information, and I'll gladly exchange, but give me nothing in return and you make me an economic fool, sirrah!
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  TheOldHippie

  FlyingHighNow put it so brilliantly, "I hope there is life after the death of the body. I hope so very much. "
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  Roski

  I'm not sure how 'hard' the hard evidence would need to be to a skeptic, however the VERITAS research program at the University of Arizona, among others, may provide some useful information. The Institute of Noetic Sciences also has some interesting information and links.

  Some books I've read recently on this subject - and found interesting are:

  Physics of the Soul - Amit Goswami, Ph.D.

  Beyond the Brain - Birth, Death and Trranscendence in Psychotherapy -Stanislav Grof

  The Physics of Consciousness - Evan Harris Walker

  An Experiment with Time - J.W.Dunne

  There are many other sites and publications available that deal with this subject in various ways and from various perspectives, however I think it is safe to say that there is an obvious shift in scientific thinking towards different models of the brain/consciousness paradigm. Quantum Physics obviously has much to do with this. In addition I think there are two other points to keep in mind. 1. Our science-based models are a product of Western philosophy and research and account for a very short peroid of history. Most (if not all) other cultures accept the belief of a spiritual world or 'afterlife' without question. 2. Personal experience cannot be quantified and reproduced in a laboratory - but does that make it any less valid? In academia in general there has been a shift from predominantly quantitative research to viewing qualitative research as being of equal merit. Perhaps for those people who have experienced a 'different' kind of phenomena the question is more easily answered, regardless of whether all scientists agree with the conclusions or not.
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  tetrapod.sapien

  
  
  LT,

  Why is it so difficult to believe that some part of us exisits in those other dimensions?

  i have no problems hypothesizing, it's the spice of life. it's "belief" i have a hard time with until there is sufficient evidence for it. jeepers. why do super string theorists hpothesize that there is 11 dimesional hyper space, and all of a sudden it is required to "believe" that there is life after death?

  is anything salvagable and in good working order, like the battery and computer system?

  yes, i see your point. but the fact of the matter is, that even if something in the human body is salvageable after death, this does not mean that there might be life after death.

  So in one breath you acknowledge, along with the rest of science, that there's a dearth of information on the subject, and on the other you take a stance that all other hypothesis must be wrong because they don't fit into your worldview?

  perhaps it has not occured to you that the dearth is present not because there is still "so much to be found", but because there most likely is nothing to find?

  like i said, i have no problems with hypothesis. it's when people try to take their personal hypothesis (that was not even set up scientifically in the first place) and pass it off as theory. that i have a problem with. like i have said before: if sufficient evidence comes along, LT, i will happily switch sides in the debate. it's the same difference as a debate about the existence of god. i won't be backing down until those paranormal hypothesis' are accepted as theory, or fact in the scientific community. thank you!

  do you find yourself having to keep reinforcing that worldview? I certainly know of few people who have to reinforce the idea of life after death, regardless of beliefs or lack thereof.

  there is nothing to re-inforce! i have a lack of belief! i debate these things with people here because i don't want lurkers from the org coming here and thinking that these positive assertions for the paranormal/supernatural go unchalleneged in non-dub-land!

  And the difficulty with this would be?

  i was responding to your unfinished sentence from a previous thread, where you said it could be a "release" from the physical. and i am saying that would require an interaction with the supernatural that i am highly skeptical actually exists.

  Circular reasoning at best!

  according to the strawman you happily set up, YES, IT IS CIRCULAR! ...wow...

  Give me better information, and I'll gladly exchange, but give me nothing in return and you make me an economic fool, sirrah!

  and round and round we go LT! i am awaiting better freaking info from paranormalists! i have NO obligation to prove the negative to you! why is this so difficult to grasp? you paint me as this narrowminded stoodge, that has no wonder or awe at nature. when that is precisely the opposite. i just do not go with the first explaination for phenomena that pops into my head, like so many have and do. i am filled with awe, but i categorically challenge any who believe in the super-natural to give me some freaking proof! why do i have to have awe AND credulity? why can't i have awe and skepticism?

  BTW, you point about NDE's occuring while there is no brain activity is a moot point. if it was a NDE, then that means that the person lived to tell about it, which means that neurological activity started at some point, which is very easily (according to parsimony!) when the NDE occured.

  regards,

  TS