Help me out, ex-jw Christians: JW and salvation (page 2)

hmike

Salvation is a great topic for study. In its broad meaning, it appears all through the Bible. Those who believed what God said (faith) and acted accordingly (obedience) were saved from what happened to those who didn't.

M.J.

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/exclusivity.htm When they say you don't need to be a JW to be saved, they're talking about dead people. Actually it's not really salvation, it's resurrection into a 1000 year probation. Not even dubs will gain true salvation until the end of the 1000 years, having to go through the same probation period as such people like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, etc. So if you're dead with a few exceptions you got a free pass to the new system. If you're alive during the Big A and not in the org you're toast. Has there been any official new light that has changed this position? It was taught explicitly in the "paradise on earth" book. They explicitly compared being in the org to being in the ark during Noah's day. But now they're obscuring the issue to try and look less like a cult. They'll still make the ark comparison though. Its doublespeak. Salvation is not mentioned very much because it's not truly assured until 1000 years after the big A. So you can capitalize on thier doublespeak in two ways: logically carry out the implications of not having to be in a particular org to be considered one of "God's people", which calls into question the very assertion that God has an org (as you mentioned). Another way is to demonstrate how the WTS is being deceptive when they imply one thing on one hand but they REALLY teach another thing. Just keep hammering on the fact that they will not be assured of salvation until the end of the 1000 years. They will not truly be considered God's children until then. I think it's really an eye-opener how their doctrines on "salvation" came about...Initially Russell taught that the 144,000 were part of Christ--"co-sacrificers", "co-redeemers", "co-saviors". Conveniently, Russell and his little band were the "remnant" of these special people. It was up to them to become divine gods and join up with Christ to save the world. The Big A would simply knock out the world's church and state institutions to make way for God's new 1000 year order under the 144,001 "Kings and Priests" (this includes Jesus). When Rutherford took over, there were too many kings and priests signing up so he decided he had to make a special class of Godly people that stayed on earth along with the rest of humanity. But wait. Why is it better to be a dub stayin on earth than joe blow stayin on earth? Oh wait, new light is due...in 1936 da Judge sez that everyone outside the org will now be fried in the Big A. So ya better sign up!!!!

JamesThomas

Help me out

In my opinion what you need help out of, salvation from, is religious beliefs. Beliefs which absurdly present a distant and limited anthropomorphic deity as your Source and Sustenance. Beliefs which feed and support the idea that you are a broken and sin-full individual in need of salvation.

I suggest that rather than study a book with your children that generally reinforces a mangled and mutilated self/reality in need of a far away god who brought the whole mess on in the first place, that you take them out into nature and sit quietly with them and seek within yourselves for what has no beginning or end. That, which needs no salvation as it is already whole and complete. You don't need the confusion and drama of religious dogma for that; only the open clarity of conscious-awareness within the moment.

If there truly is a God, does it not seem fitting that It would be here and now present, and closer than close? So loving that you discover you were never really the broken shard of existence separated from Wholeness that you believed yourself to be?

j

LittleToe

James:Whilst what you say is undoutably true, it probably wont be of much assistance to him in breaking his wife free from the WTS. She'd probably have a screaming fit, thinking that he was trying to increase her suseptability to deemunz!!!

LOL

Check_Your_Premises

James,

I always love your responses, especially the way you lay into the concept of relgion. I agree with you that it is strictly a human construct, it has been horribly abused, receives to much emphasis, and it is wholly inadequate in describing God.

But in defense of religion, I guess I would invoke C.S. Lewis' analogy when someone made a very similar complaint to him. Religion is to God, as a map is to the ocean. It is completely inadequate in describing ocean. It certainly is not a replacement for the real thing. On the other hand, it is a useful tool to help a guide a person. And since it does involve the experiences of others who have been somewhere you want to go, it is useful to consider it carefully.

As far as Christianity, well I guess what appeals to me is not the reminders of my wretchedness (trust me, if you knew me, my wretchedness would not be in doubt), but rather the hope of washing away of that wretchedness and becoming anew. I spent a great deal of time looking for happiness from within. It is not a wasted effort, and I think everyone needs to do that, if for no other reason, then to keep things quiet in ones head when you are all alone. However, I do recall the day I decided I did beleive in God. The sky became bluer, and the grass became greener, and I cheered up quite a bit.

In the end, if we are simply bacteria on a rock hurtling through a meaningless universe, does it matter so much if we are mistaken in our beliefs in a benevolent Creator? Does it (the idea alone, not it's nasty derivations) cause us any harm, if it does bring us comfort?

If there is no God, then I guess nothing does matter all that much, least of all, whether or not I believe in God.

JamesThomas

I understand what you are saying Ross. Yet, I am discovering more everyday that that the healing elixir for all problems is the discovery of the existence of inner truth and wholeness. Do not think for a moment that the radiance of light uncovered within does not in some way affect those around us. It can not be intellectually understood or expressed, but the perfume does it's magic nonetheless.

Generally Ross, I post when there is some silent motivation to do so. It may not be for the ears and eyes of the one being address. It may go unnoticed. It may be for me to hear. I don't really know.

j

JamesThomas

Well said CYP. Perhaps all I am really trying to say, is open to the fact that what you seek may be closer and more alive than what is found within a book or beliefs.

The only distance between us and what is Divine, is between our ears.

j

Check_Your_Premises

that you take them out into nature and sit quietly with them and seek within yourselves for what has no beginning or end.

That sounds nice, but if I did that with my kids, we would sit there for about 30seconds, someone would fart loudly, laughs all around, and then my son would say, "how long do I have to sit here"

That, which needs no salvation as it is already whole and complete

James, I am not a dub. I don't think everyone who isn't a dub is a total scumbag. However, I use to believe the "truth will set you free". Now I am starting to wonder if ignorance is not in fact bliss. Because the more I realize and understand about the nature of man, the more I understand the scope of pain, and evil that some perpetrate, I can't help but long for salvation from it. I can't help but hope that we get a do-over.

JamesThomas

CYP, go ahead and believe what you are going to believe. No problem. Just allow room for inner investigation. As crazy as it may sound, It could be that the peace, joy and purity that you seek, is here already, and just needs to be seen.

hmike

James,

I understand that "salvation" takes many forms, and we should appreciate and experience the wonder and beauty of what we have available now, but...

take them out into nature and sit quietly with them and seek within yourselves for what has no beginning or end.

This is assuming that a person is not prevented from doing this by some neurological disorder, or that they are not bedridden by some disease or injury, or not confined to a prison cell, etc. What about a world with crime, war, famine, disease, hatred, and oppression? Isn't the desire for better things fundamental to the human race? Otherwise, we'd be living like animals, if we would be alive at all. The desire for salvation is the desire to improve conditions, perhaps to some kind of ideal. If there's no vision of something better, and no desire and effort to bring it about, how do we make progress?

The only differences I see in ideas of salvation are "What are we being saved from/to," and "How do we get there?"

Help me out, ex-jw Christians: JW and salvation

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