US Law & Presidency

by Amazing 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    US Law & Presidency

    Many non-American people as well as many American citizens do not fully understand the legal premise of our system, nor how the system is designed to function. Because so many have a hazy idea, they often make mistakes in voting and involvement in the political system.

    The Presidency: The Office of the US President was designed to be weak and largely one of administration. The primary power is vested in Congress, especially the US House of Representatives. A weal Executive was designed in response to the all-powerful King of England. The US wanted to keep this office very controlled.

    From the time our very first President John Handcock, the President has been very limited. Oh, who was that? John who? What about George Washington? John Handcock was the first President of the United States and Congress when he signed the Declaration of Independence in July 1776. He duly held that office, appointed George Washington as General of the Army. President Handcock also financed the first navel vessels in the US Navy. He served as a General as well, but was not a very good military man and did not win any major battles. After the Revolutionary War, the Office of President was abolished as the Articles of Confederation went into effect. John Handcock then went on to become Governor several terms.

    Our second President, George Washington was not elected until 1789 under the newly adopted Constitution which was ratified by ¾ of the States and replaced the Articles of Confederation. George Washington saw the importance of keeping the President limited, not only in Executive Power, by in terms served, and voluntarily limited his own service to two terms. This set a long-standing tradition of term limits until Franklin Roosevelt broke tradition by being elected to four terms.

    The Powers of US Presidents: The President does not rule by decree or even make legislation. He can influence proposals and bills presented to Congress. He appoints Cabinet members and Judges and can sign treaties, but the Senate must ratify these. The Senate is the official watchdog house of Congress that keeps the President under control. The only legislative power of the President is the Veto. But even this can be overturned by 2/3rds vote of Congress. The House of Representatives can impeach, but only the Senate can remove the President from office.

    Legal Theory of the Constitution: US legal theory is NOT that the government grants rights to the people, but rather ALL rights are presumed to belong to the People and the people loan power to a limited federal government. The Bill of Rights was inserted to assure that Congress would NEVER mess around with certain basic rights. The founders of the US were politicians and well knew the tendencies of politicians to circumvent and lawyer their way around laws.

    The only job of Congress is to provide common currency, common defense, post roads (nowadays we call them Interstate Highways, and regulate Commerce. It is under the Commerce clause that you will find the vast majority of Congressional legislation. This is done because they cannot make laws easily, and must have some legal basis on which to justify new legislation. The Interstate Commerce Clause has been stretched to limits never conceived by the founding fathers. Congress also has the responsibility to assure that the State continue to provide a republican form of Government and enforce the basic rights of the people.

    The States: The States were considered the supreme place where the people at large would conduct most legislative business. The States have the power to call a Constitutional Convention, and the States also appointed the Senators to provide equal representation among the larger and smaller states. This was changed to direct election by the people in the States, but the Senate is the body that still represents the States in Congress. Whereas the House of Representatives represents all the people on a proportional basis.

    Presidential Elections: The Office of President was NEVER meant to be filled by a national democratic vote of the people. Why? Because it was not intended to be the voice of the People. The House of Representatives was meant to be the voice of the People and express the Will of the People.

    The Electoral College was originally set up because the Electors would represent the Best Interest of People, but not necessarily the Will of the People. The Electoral College was designed to be slightly tilted in favor of smaller States. That is why it has 435 Electors equal to the House, and 100 Electors equal to the Senate. The Senate is tilted in favor of smaller States by being equal to larger States in representation. This may be compared to baseball, e.g. IN the World Series it is NOT how many points you score total (= Popular Vote) but how many Games you win (= Electoral Vote).

    Therefore, Bill Clinton only received 43% of the Popular Vote in 1992, but won the Electoral College. (Notice how Democrats never complained about Bill stealing the election) Then, in 1996, Bill Clinton still only won 49% of the Popular Vote, but won the Electoral College. In 2000, George Bush won 49% of the Popular Vote, and while the Florida Electoral vote was still in question, Al Gore capitulated, and PUBLICLY STATED that he CONCEDED the election. In US political Speak, this means that he AGREED that George won the Florida vote and the US election. Al Gore could have withdrawn without making this all-important Concession Speech. Unless Al is a liar, he was stated that he LOST. After the Election the Florida vote was recounted again by various media agencies and George barely won.

    Margin of Error: the Margin of error in the 2000 Election was greater than the Margin of victory. Al Gore won the national popular Vote by just over 300,000. The national “under-vote” that is vote that did not get counted was about 2.9 Million. Florida was the only state that got any real attention because of its key role. But, if all the under-vote could have been counted nationally, either man could have been elected. The USA will survive this as it has in the past. It was close, and a decision needed to be made. And, while the US Supreme Court had an unusual And unprecedented role, Al Gore could have gone back to Florida and continued the fight. The final decision was Al’s to make, and he decided to Concede.

    Dimpled Chads: Many states use the old punch card voting machine. Every state has some problem with these, but the vast majority is that voters do not FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS clearly posted at the voting booths. This was the famous question asked by Justice Sandra Day O’Connor when questioning lead legal counsel for Al Gore, and counsel had to agree with O’Connor that this was the fundamental problem.

    We had the same voting machine here in Illinois, and the instructions are clear. Claims about machine malfunction are without merit. Also, the increased handling and boxing the ballot cards together increased the risk that Chads would be denting other ballots and get popped off thus voiding votes. When I voted, I looked at the ballot and made sure it was clear according to instructions. If I screwed up, then I take responsibility.

    What if Al Gore would have won?: Then we would have Al Gore as President. Big deal. Sure some of his policies some would like better, and likely he would have continued some of Clinton’s international policies. So what? The real power is not in the President. Any treaties he signed would have to be ratified by the Senate, but then likely the Democrats would control this body as it now does, plus the VP Joe Lieberman would be President of the Senate.

    The Real Power: The US House of Representatives is where the real power is because it represents the proportionate Will of the People. The House, unlike the Senate, controls the Purse Strings to the money. And what party was elected to the House? The Republican Party retained control by virtue of the vote of the People of the USA.

    The economy was floundering from 1992 to 1994 until the Republicans took control of both houses and started to engage in their own agenda. Clinton was seriously crippled and so signed on to the Republican agenda against the wishes of Democrats. He then was astute in trying to take credit for the improved economy by virtue of his signing Republican Bills. But the agenda clearly belonged to the Republicans. Newt Gingrich, then Speaker of the House became more relevant and powerful than Clinton himself.

    What really saved the US economy in the last 7 years?: While the Republican Congress did much to roll back taxes, which helped greater to stimulate the economy and get the despotic tax burden lifted somewhat, the real help came from our friendly Foreign Investors! As the world economy, especially the Pacific Rim nations started to have problems, foreign investors poured their money into US banks, CD’s, T-Bills, Bonds, Stocks, Real Estate, and businesses. This infusion of funds from abroad reduced interest rates and caused a boom in the housing market and construction. The cash flow also boosted businesses and consumer spending. Jobs grew, and more cash flow boomed the economy. High Tech and the Internet also boomed and greatly added to the positive developments.

    What is happening Now?: Any economic boom will eventually see a slowing cycle or even a downturn. The USA is experiencing a correction that is not even a Recession. Foreign investment is still strong and mortgage interest rates are still low. The low Fed rate does not help mortgage rates much, as this is more a function of foreign and domestic savings and investment. It appears that the economy will bounce back, and has little to do with the US President, or even Congress for that matter.

    Bush’s Foreign Policies: The area where George Bush is making the news is his foreign policy and reluctance to be involved in certain treaties. If we take an objective look at what these treaties are about, they do have serious flaws, and one can see why Bush would scrap them and start over. One can also look at them as suggest that the US sign on and then work for improvement. One positive step followed by more steps. This is ideal and I have no doubts that Bush contemplated this approach. But, he may very well believe that the flaws are so deep and comprehensive that it would be better to start over. It is really hard to judge fairly and objectively.

    Emotions Run too High: I often find that when people bash Bush, or Clinton, or some other world leader, the majority of the time it is influenced by fear and the resulting emotions, and not always on logic or objective analysis. And, given the best of intentions and efforts, sometimes it is merely a difference of opinion. I find it is safer as a voter to sit back and watch, read a lot, study BOTH sides or ALL sides in an issue before making up my mind where I stand. I find that in discussing and debating these issues that emotions make it very hard to have a rational discussion where each side tries to understand the views of the other. How much more so is this a problem among politicians and the media. These are a representation of the People, and as such they reflect more emotion then rational and objective examination. It is for this reason I find most political discussion difficult if not distasteful. I still talk politics in some forums, but it has become increasingly difficult because those I engage seem to rely more on emotion and rhetoric than on fair and rational debate.

    Do I support any Changes in US Presidential Election Law?:

    I think the Parliamentary system where the Prime Minister can be ousted with a No Confidence Vote is very useful and would serve to keep the US President weak. It would also allow the Party in Power to control who is President.

    Other than that change, I favor no Campaign Financed reform. I believe that Term Limits is the best way, and enough. Otherwise special Interest Lobbies do more good than not, and I favor them. I favor Americans being able to contribute as much as they want to help elect the President ofd a Congressperson. Lots of money is not a guarantee, but it does buy lots of advertising, and is one way the people vote.

    I favor the Electoral College not because we need them to think for us. That concept was never really employed as Electors traditionally and later by State laws are bound to vote the Will of the People. But, I like the Electoral College because it tips the scale slightly in favor of smaller States. Hence, George Bush won 30 of 50 States, and only in this regard does he have a mandate, but by the original intent of the Constitution, that is the most legitimate mandate.

    I know that many, if not most Americans would prefer a national Popular Vote. there is merit to this view, but I disagree along the lines that it is not the total points that are as important as the games won. I believe that if we go to a Popular Vote, we will further diminish the concept that we are a nation of States. I believe that this erosion will continue to push power away from States and to a central federal system. Too much concentrated power is dangerous. So, while the Popular Vote has clear merits along the lines of equalized fairness, it has the potential of circumventing the States, and that potential is something I do not believe is in our bests interests.

    However, if we change the system, then lets change baseball to have on game, 63 innings long (instead of 7 games and 9 innings) and just total the score for all 63 innings. - Amazing

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Great, great post. Thank you for doing this. I had absolutely forgotten about John Hancock. It's somewhere in the dark recesses of my brain.

    But, I still think George W. is a dunderhead. So is Al Gore, but Bush just looks so dumb!! But then, I am very visual.

    I didn't know that Clinton didn't win the popular vote. Of course I was a dubbie back then, and didn't get involved in politics, with neutrality and all.

    I voted for Gore!

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)

  • Julie
    Julie

    Thank you for the interesting information Amazing. I was a little disappointed in your presentation of only half the facts regarding the 1992 and 1996 presidential elections.

    :Therefore, Bill Clinton only received 43% of the Popular Vote in 1992, but won the Electoral College. (Notice how Democrats never complained about Bill stealing the election) Then, in 1996, Bill Clinton still only won 49% of the Popular Vote, but won the Electoral College.

    Amazing, I find it extremely interesting that you fail to include how much of the popular vote was won by the other candidates. In 1992 yes Clinton only won 43% of the vote, Bush won 37.4 and Perot just under 19%. In 1996 Clinton won 49%, Dole 41% and Perot 8.5%. I don't see a clear contest here as to who won more of the popular vote, in fact I see no contest at all. Clinton won more of the popular vote than the other candidates and the electoral college vote reflected that. Why would anyone (Republican or Democrat) assert the election was stolen?

    Why would you present such an incomplete picture if you are truly trying to teach accurate information? Why toss in that inflammatory remark about the "dems" not complaining about the election being "stolen"? I am getting the feeling you aren't making much of an effort to present a clear and Objective view here Amazing. It is quite JWish actually. Old habits die hard? My sympathies.

    Julie

    P.S. Marilyn, sorry you were so mislead by Amazing's post, like religion one must check on all things where emotions run high, facts are often altered to suit views. Just a friendly FYI :-)

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Julie: Okay, I see that some clarification is needed.

    You said,

    "Amazing, I find it extremely interesting that you fail to include how much of the popular vote was won by the other candidates. In 1992 yes Clinton only won 43% of the vote, Bush won 37.4 and Perot just under 19%. In 1996 Clinton won 49%, Dole 41% and Perot 8.5%. I don't see a clear contest here as to who won more of the popular vote, in fact I see no contest at all. Clinton won more of the popular vote than the other candidates and the electoral college vote reflected that. Why would anyone (Republican or Democrat) assert the election was stolen?"

    The long-standing premise of those who object to the Electoral College is that a candidate can win the Office of President without winning the Popular Vote. The concept is that the Majority of Popular Votes represents the WILL of the people, and thus in a three-way contest you would need to have a run-off election to get the majority.

    This premise is not entirely the foundation of the US Constitution. While simple majorities are acceptable, in other cases it is not. For example, to Amend the Constitution, a super-majority of 3/4ths of the States is required for ratification. This is to insure that a substantial amount of people really want the change. It keeps the majority from injuring the minority. Jury trials in criminal cases require 100% of the vote (or poll) of the Jury to convict. For Congress to overturn a Veto of the President, requires 2/3rds of both Houses. Clearly, one man can stop the simple majority in its tracks.

    Clinton won a plurality, but not a clear majority, even though that majority was divided between other candidates. My point was not about whether Clinton won, but the fact that he won without a majority under our current Electoral system. George Bush, jr. won under our current Electoral system without a majority of the popular vote, but with a super majority of States (30 of 50 States) in his camp. Therefore, neither Clinton nor Bush stole anything, only sore losers make such claims on either side.

    You continued,

    "Why would you present such an incomplete picture if you are truly trying to teach accurate information? Why toss in that inflammatory remark about the "dems" not complaining about the election being "stolen"? I am getting the feeling you aren't making much of an effort to present a clear and Objective view here Amazing. It is quite JWish actually. Old habits die hard? My sympathies."

    The thrust of my post was about the designed 'weakness' of the Office of President and how the USA and other nations and the respective media organizations make way too much out of this election. My post was about the lack of necessity of winning the majority of popular vote, but still win the election, because of winning the majority of States.

    Yes, I could have presented more details. I do not argue with the additional details you include. But to conclude that I am being devious somehow is not correct, nor fair-minded, and suggest that you have some agenda yourself. Why not give me at least the benefit of the doubt and inquire before judging me? This tendancy to rush to judgment is not healthy, and is also a hang-over from JW days. So in this, you are no better than me.

    Lord knows that many details were not included, and the reason is that they are not critical to the simple aspects of the discussion. What am I to do, include the entire History of the United States of America to make sure that no scintilla of detail is left out, lest I be accused of hiding something? I use many words as it is without being chained down to giving more and more details in an attempt to satisfy every possible angle opened up to discussion.

    I do absolutely resent the implication that I am somehow still in JW mode or that I have some ulterior agenda or that I am attempting to mislead. This is nothing but ad hominem argument in attempt to make your point. It is an old trick used when people have little else to use in their presentation of discussion.

    Finally, my little "dig" at Democrats not complaining about Clinton's 43% of the vote is valid, though not intended to demean Democrats. Had Bush, sr. won with 43% of the vote in 1992, the Democrats would have been howling about that too. If Al Gore had lost the popular vote in 2000, but edged out Bush in the Electoral process, then the Republicans too would have howled and Democrats would be calling Republicans sore losers. That is simple politics, regardless of where you stand in the political process or which party you are affiliated. The purpose of my 'dig' was to contrast this with what happened in 2000 with Bush / Gore. My point was to show that the whole debate about the US President seems silly to me, given the weakness of the office.

    Yeah, I could have left the 'dig' out, but it seemed appropriate at the time I was typing. If I offended anyone, I apologize, but my motive was contrast, and obviously it got attention. Unfortunately, it may have actually side-tracked from the point, and caused you to miss the gist of what I was trying to say. - Amazing

  • Commie Chris
    Commie Chris

    Amazing: You are essentially correct, but it is also important to note that the U.S. political system was never designed to be a democracy. The idea that the Founding Fathers set out to design a political system which would ensure that the masses would exercise democratic control over “their” government is a myth. Madison, who had more to do with drafting the U.S. constitution than anyone, was strongly opposed to democracy and warned against it. He and the other Founding Fathers felt that the prime responsibility of government was to protect the property of the rich minority against majority. They feared that a genuine democracy would result in the “ignorant masses” taking political power and then taking the property of the rich. Madison and the other Founding Fathers thought this would be a disaster. Alexander Hamilton called the masses the “great beast” and warned against “letting the people take control”. Their vision was of a government of enlightened, benevolent aristocrats who would rule in the best interests of all. However, this was in the very early days of capitalism and the Founding Fathers did not imagine that the government system which they designed would soon be controlled by a business class which was not a group of nice gentlemanly aristocrats or Enlightenment philosophers. By the 1790s, Madison was appalled at the way the increasingly powerful business class exercised power. He called them “tools and tyrants” and denounced their “daring depravity”.

    It’s hardly surprising that today the U.S. political system is essentially a playground for the elites - that's what it was designed to be.

    - Commie Chris

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hi Amazing,

    :Yes, I could have presented more details. I do not argue with the additional details you include. But to conclude that I am being devious somehow is not correct, nor fair-minded, and suggest that you have some agenda yourself.

    That's it, I have an Agenda. (um, what would that be?)

    I guess what you consider "winning the majority" and what I consider "winning the majority" are two entirely different things. In my simple-minded view I was under the impression that the person who got the most votes from the populace "won the majority" of the popular vote. Apparently, according to you, this is not the case.

    Considering how I stupidly believed that getting the most votes from the populace meant winning the majority of the popular vote, you can easily see how I stupidly thought your publication of half of the facts was intended to be misleading.

    :My point was to show that the whole debate about the US President seems silly to me, given the weakness of the office.

    See, here is another point that helps me to understand my own stupidity. I knew that the legislative branch of our government has the most authority but, simpleton that I am, I guess I didn't fully understand the severity of the weakness of the office of the president. I was going around stupidly believing that to be able to appoint the cabinet and the lower tiers was a valuable power. I also was under the wrong assumption that having the power to nominate/appoint Supreme Court justices and other federal judgeships was a valuable power (also the power to decide who gets first crack at reviewing those nominess i.e. the ABA no longer has that priveledge but I believe it goes to an organization headed by the beloved, owed-a-great-debt-by-the-Republicans, Ken Starr). Fool that I am I thought it was a powerful position to be in to be at the head of your party and be able to influence votes in the legislative branch. Can you believe I actually thought having the power to veto legislation was Really Something? What a moron I have been.

    Thanks for helping me to see that the president of the United States is the biggest nobody in Washington D.C..

    Julie, who now realizes that an Executive Order issued by the president is really nothing at all

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi CommieChris: You said,

    "Amazing: You are essentially correct, but it is also important to note that the U.S. political system was never designed to be a democracy."

    Correct. When Benjamin Franklin (I believe it was him) was asked what kind of government we have, he said 'Republican, if you can keep it' allusing to the idea of how fragile it was. We are a Republic and not a Democracy. I agree with that type of system, otherwise the simple majority could harm the minority. A simple majority could, for example, decide they want slavery again. That would be a disaster. A Republican form of government could more easily stop it.

    You continued,

    "The idea that the Founding Fathers set out to design a political system which would ensure that the masses would exercise democratic control over “their” government is a myth."

    Agreed. That is why the Electoral College was developed, and again, a representative republican form of government.

    You continued,

    "Madison, who had more to do with drafting the U.S. constitution than anyone, was strongly opposed to democracy and warned against it. He and the other Founding Fathers felt that the prime responsibility of government was to protect the property of the rich minority against majority. They feared that a genuine democracy would result in the “ignorant masses” taking political power and then taking the property of the rich."

    Would you provide your source references for these claims?

    You continued,

    "Madison and the other Founding Fathers thought this would be a disaster. Alexander Hamilton called the masses the “great beast” and warned against “letting the people take control”. Their vision was of a government of enlightened, benevolent aristocrats who would rule in the best interests of all. However, this was in the very early days of capitalism and the Founding Fathers did not imagine that the government system which they designed would soon be controlled by a business class which was not a group of nice gentlemanly aristocrats or Enlightenment philosophers. By the 1790s, Madison was appalled at the way the increasingly powerful business class exercised power. He called them “tools and tyrants” and denounced their “daring depravity”."

    Again, please provide actual source references so I can review the context of these claims.

    You concluded,

    "It’s hardly surprising that today the U.S. political system is essentially a playground for the elites - that's what it was designed to be."

    While there is some truth, this is largely a socialist myth wrapped in their class envy of thosew who gain wealth through heard work. This is also a very simplistic view that does not address many dynmaics of modern US Governent and Society. I found such simple reasoning the undertone in Karl Marx Communist Manifesto. He made broad sweeping claims about capitalism that were very simple-minded. We see the result of Communism today, looking back on 75 years of Soviet history. - Amazing

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Julie: You can get as surly and sarcasytic as you wish. But, Clinton winning 43% of the vote is not, nor can it ever be a majority ... but rather it is called a Pluralty. So, your sarcastic language is yet another false argument style. When people miss the point, they either resort to ad hominem or such sarcasm or other styles.

    I did not suggest that you were stupid or simple. I was trying to show how you were missing my point. Of course the US President has some power. But that power is largely checked by the Senate, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the Republican Senate kept Bill Clinton in check every bit as much as the Democrat Senate will keep Bush in check. The President can propose all the positions, bills, and treaties he wants, but the Senate can slap him down anytime they wish.

    Again, my whole premise is that too much is made out of the Office of President. Republicans finally after 40 years got the clue, and worked to take back the House and Senate, which they accomplished in 1994. And the country boomed since that time. That is where I focus my own political concerns, and much less on the President.

    What prompted my post was that many speak about Clinton or Bush as though these men just set policy and rule by Decree, like the old Kings of England. Bush is far less responsible for what is happeneing than he is given credit, as was Bill Clinton during his terms in office. - Amazing

  • Francois
    Francois

    Amazing, that was an amazingly good essay. Damn good. I see that we're cut from pretty much the same piece of leather (although your statement "The President does not rule by decree or even make legislation" has one little crack in it - the executive decree. Remember "stoke of the pen, law of the land. Cool!)?? I certainly remember it.

    Also, I'm very opposed to direct election and the mob rule it contemplates.

    As for political discussion having devolved into little more than emotionalism, you couldn't be more precise. And that couldn't be more sad. It seems our national political discourse is being conducted by the extreme wings of both parties: the near Marxists like Gephardt, Daschle, Bonior, Clinton, Kennedy, and Harkin on the one hand, and the far right like Armey and the army of others (actually, I listen more to the leftists than I do to the right wing. "know your enemy" as Sun Tzu advised). I frankly am tiring of the entire endless debate.

    Anyway, thanks very much for a very well done essay.

    Francois

    P.S. JULIE - It's worse than that. Clinton was elected by 43% OF THOSE VOTING. And that was a very low number, seeing as something like only 53.5% of elegible voters actually cast ballots. Thus Clinton was elected by 43% of 54.5%, or about 23%. And if Ross Perot hadn't drained 19 million votes from Bush, we would never have been saddled with that amoral, unethical, crooked bastard Clinton.

    Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

  • sawthelight
    sawthelight

    Bravo amazing

    as a canadian i'm green with envy that you yanks have a REPUBLICAN form of government and we canucks are stuck with the parlimentary democracy where the prime minister can actually decree some things into law by order of his personally hand picked cabinet. the us system with all of the checks and balances is truly brilliant.

    for everyone who still cling to the idea that gore won, you must remember that both men new the rules before the contest and as late as 1 week before the election is was believed that bush would carry more of the popular vote and gore the electoral college. i believe that high profile dems like james carvel liked the rules at that point. also, if the pres was elected by direct popular vote, both candidates would have campained differently ignoring FLa., Penn., etc., in the final days of the election and concentrated on the most populas state of Calf.(largely ignored by bush because he knew that he had no chance to outpoll gore there and would therby lose all of the the electoral colege votes for that state) this would have undoubtedly have changed the outcome of the popular vote in some way.

    finally amazing, i once heard on the radio show "the rest of the storey" that john adams was sworn in as vp 9 days before washington was sworn in as pres. and that one of the vp's duties is to carry out the office of president if the elected pres is unable. since washington had not taken the oath of office adams was president for those 9 days making washington president no. 3.

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