Is it time to demollish the welfare state in the UK

by Gill 136 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Sirona

  I've been earning and struggling to pay for my degree. Then when I go to class I see lots of people (usually women, single mums) who say they got it for free because they're on benefits.

  I know some people who get £200 per month income support, rent paid = £350 per month, plus child benefits (not sure how much but I think its a fair bit each month). All of that is fine if the person is trying to get work and earn. The problem arises when they DO start earning and they make say £100 per week. At that point all of the benefits stop and they can't afford to feed and house themselves. So why work?

  Sirona
• 

  logical

  What people dont realise is that this problem IS being tackled.
  
  One of the things Tony Blair introduced a few years ago was "New Deal". Now if there is anything that he has done right, this is it. What it does is force the long term (6 month or more) unemployed to work for their benefits. They get put on a full time work experience placement, or go to college, or are forced to do community work. It lasts 26 weeks and they have no choice to do it or their benefits are sanctioned for 13 weeks minimum.
  
  Now IMO that is a very good way to sort this out. The work experience placements are mostly working for charities and voluntary organisations. A proportion of the street cleaners / bin men etc are on New Deal. They all have to do 1 day a week of training to get a qualification to improve their employability.
  
  However there ARE major flaws in this: Firstly people on New Deal get paid extra money. This is not too bad because they ARE working full time. The problem is they even get the extra money if they choose the education option. Which makes me mad, because they are not working.
  
  I've been on both sides. In my late teenage years I was a dole dosser and had no intention of working. When I was a JW I had a cleaning job (that didnt last very long). Eventually, I was forced onto New Deal and got a job. Which was boring but at least I was doing something, and it was good work for a good organisation that actually benefits people instead of robbing them.
  
  Then what happens? My curse kicks in and I get too sick to work. Contract ends, they dont renew it. I hate my life.
• 

  Sirona

  Logical,

  Good point.

  However, its the education thing which gets on my nerves. They get the course paid for, they get extra money, and I bet you that only a certain percentage go on to get a job! If you pass a course in say, electics or beauty, employers still want to see experience and work history. OR if they do employ you, you'll be on a really crap wage which means you'd still be better off on welfare.

  As for those too sick to work, I don't object to their benefits and I think that the government is doing a lot to stop people milking the system.

  Sirona
• 

  Gill

  All your answers make me realise what a mess the country's in, more than my personal experiences!

  The education system, and the welfare system lets the young people down by probably giving them too much in the case of welfare and not enough in the case of education.

  Being a mother is no longer a 'job' unless someone else is doing it.

  This makes me mad, as when I only had two kids I used to work full time and loved it. Then I had twins and could not work. I had some very serious heart problems, got those fixed, decided to go back to college, got pregnant, (God knows how!!!! We're still wondering where the last one came from! All right! Apart from the obvious!) Then found it financially impossible to go back to work. BUT I NEVER STOP WORKING!!!!!

  How can a single mum, manage to care for her children and work full time?!

  Kids get the short end of the stick. It takes me all my effort to chase up after all my kids to keep them roughly on the straight and narrow, whatever that is. How can a single mum manage who rarely sees her kids? She can't win. And I'm not just talking about the young teenagers who have babies. Being a single parent can happen to any one.

  So is it any wonder that the young are roaming the streets, procreating at an alarming rate, getting drunk, on drugs, attacking the innocent, vomiting in the central reservations and other peoples garden, pissing up any bush that standing. I know it sounds bleak, but you should live in our area. The gradual break down of society is a tragedy mainly for the kids as they don't have the support network they once relied on.

  In the UK it pays to be unmarried rather than married.

  In the UK it pays to be a single parent rather than a couple.

  Money talks! And look what we're left with.
• 

  logical

  Bear in mind that my previous praises of the system are my ONLY praises.
  
  I currently hate this system, I went for a medical review a couple of months ago. Took all my evidence with me, including a detailed analysis from my hospital specialist. I was under the impression I was going to be examined... he asked about 5 questions and that was it, and he read and took a copy of the evidence. Then I was told a week later my benefits have been stopped!
  
  So I have appealed, I am on 40% less money, and when I got the forms for the appeal from the Welfare Rights agency, I was AMAZED at how many questions I should have been asked, there were LOADS.
  
  The doctor was an idiot. He should not be doing that job, he didnt do it properly. I put that on my reasons for the appeal too. I was not asked any relevant questions.
  
  I find it so wrong that people can so easily cheat the JSA system yet when people are genuinely unable to work they get put through all this shit and get less money than the JSA people. I was told by someone who worked with ill people that they do this ALL THE TIME, and its mostly deliberate. They just want to get people to give up so they dont have to pay them. I will be waiting at least 2-3 more months for my appeal hearing. If I am lucky. This gives you an idea of how many people they screw over. I can understand the need to be vigilant about it but this just takes the piss...
  
  If only JSA was as difficult to claim. It should be.
• 

  Sirona

  Gill,

  I don't doubt that it is a difficult job to raise a child when you're a single parent. However, does that mean that all single mums should be "kept" by the government? No. For one thing, as you stated yourself, having one child is different to having four. A mum with one child should be able to work full time IMHO but I can see why many don't - because they can't afford to work full time...if they did, their benefits would be taken away and they wouldn't be able to pay for things on a low wage. At least if they don't work they get the rent paid, etc.

  It does bug me though. When I have kids, if I choose to work less hours to care for the child in the early months at least, then we'll likely struggle financially, because I have a working husband and won't be entitled to any extra help. (Not as though I'd really want benefits but you get my point) Whereas a single mum on the same row as me gets her rent paid and does just fine without working.

  Sirona
• 

  unbeliever

  The US did a whole welfare revamp in the mid 90's. They made many necessary changes but people are still abusing it. One thing that drove me crazy was food stamps. People would trade their food stamps for drugs. This was a major, major problem. It's been curbed some because now they have to use a type of debit card. I can't remember what's its called.

  I remember standing in the grocery line and saw a woman using food stamps but paid cash for a carton of cigaretts. Her baby's clothes were too small and her face was dirty. With that $25 she could have bought the baby some new clothes. That was our tax money buying those cigs. It's abuses that like that make me see red.
• 

  Mutz

  Some facts and figures I found recently when doing some research about Benefits Fraud etc.
  
  TAX AVOIDANCE & FRAUD
  
  Estimated annual cost (£ billions):
  Corporate tax avoidance: ..................85
  Business fraud: .................................14
  Government fraud in Whitehall: .........5
  Tobacco smuggling: ..........................3.5
  VAT fraud on mobile phones: .........2.5
  Total welfare fraud: ............................2
  Jobseekers Allowance fraud: .........0.19
  Bulldozer smuggling:...................... 0.15
  
  I looked into this when someone started a rant about Benefits Cheats.
  If you happen to read the Daily Mail etc they make it look like it's the 'work shy' that are
  the source of all the countries ills, along with children (those with the least chance of affecting anything)
  immigrants etc. The figures, however, tell a differnt story.
  When was the last time you saw an article in any of those papers that bore any relation to the facts though?
• 

  talesin

  Corporate tax avoidance: ..................85

  The very ones who don`t pay workers a living wage ... thinking Walmart, McDonald`s, etc. etc. etc.

  Keep the masses on their knees, and blame them for the social ills of the free world while the rich pocket the profits. Not much has changed from the dark ages in that respect.

  Mutz, great point, thanks for doing the research!

  tal
• 

  what_Truth?

  My ideas to solving the problems are:
  
  -give people personal tax breaks depending on thier social situation. Do it in such a way that a teenaged mom with one kid earning minimum wage will still come out ahead of a single mom on welfare. make employers reflect that break with their payroll deductions.
  
  -give employers huge tax cuts based on the number of disenfranchised people they employ. Keep strict watch to ensure consistant numbers. (this would be a LOT more effective than most government "job creation" program since the workers will be making someone money rather than just being federal overhead).
  
  -Give employers tax breaks for giving entry level workers good raises and decent promotions.
  
  -If an employyer hires someone who's been on welfare for a while the government should give that company a portion of the benifits the person would have received had they not been working. It would be illegal for the company to tell anyone which workers are on, or have been on, this system.
  
  -Put a three month statute of limitations on all employer drug tests. That way recovered addicts will have a better chance at getting good work.
  
  -run a TV, radio, and print ad campaign showing that people can and do get off the system to lead meaningful and productive lives.
  
  -Make everyone on the national healthcare system submit to a full physical once every 5 years to keep their benefits. If people know that they're one order of fries away from a heart attack they might decided to change their lifestyle before they get it. If not then doctors can at least perscribe some medications that can help lower the risk. This will keep thousands of people in the workforce and off the sickwards.
  
  -A welfare recipiant should only be eligible for school if they have proven that they can make money in the field they're studying; unless the school itself has a 75% job placement rate or better.