Is it time to demollish the welfare state in the UK

by Gill 136 Replies latest jw friends

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon
    Our tennis players aspire to greatness but slip at the last, and often first hurdle.

    Who cares?

    Our National Health service though catering to all, is NO WHERE near the quality it should be.

    Yeah, well, if people hadn't voted for the Tories (who underinvested in the Health Service for almost two decades so they could cut taxes), then the hospitals wouldn't have been in such a bad state after Labour came in. The amount of money going into the Health Service has doubled and will still not reach the European average for a couple of years. People voted for low taxes and then whined about a decaying health service. Silly people.

    My neighbours 15 year old daughter is pregnant. Father unknown. Her 17 year old sons girlfriend, who is 15, is pregnant.

    Knowing what sex education is like in the UK, I'm not surprised. In Holland teen pregnancy is 1/4 of the UK and they start having sex later - they just prepare kids for teenage life better.

    Young people in general are not striving for education, good jobs, money, only for quick fixes.

    Ah, thing is, more young people are in higher education than ever before. So, in general, young people ARE striving for education.

    Hence my question: If the UK abolished the welfare state and National Health Service, after the first ten or so years would the country be a better place to live in?

    If people had to face the real costs of their behaviour would they be more likely to gain ambition to work hard and support themselves and save for the future if they saw their fellow man struggling to survive scouring the rubbish tips and living on the streets.

    Now I wouldn't want to see people in those terrible situations but does the fact that we have a safety net mean that people are willing to survive on government handouts and never seek education or 'good' jobs for themselves?

    Go to America. That will answer your questions. The answers are 'no', 'no', and 'no'. Welfare states and non-welfare states BOTH have parasitic criminal badly socialised underclasses.

    We have the highest rate of teen pregnancys in the world.

    No, that would be the USA.

    These girls automatically qualify for a meal ticket for life.

    Likewise in other welfare states with teen pregnancy 1/4 of the UK. Those that do have kids have a meal ticket, but FAR LESS do. It's not the welfare that causes this problem, it's the sexual education.

    Their boyfriends, if they're still with them, also qualify just to make sure that the baby has enough to eat and a roof over its head. Is it time to stop ALL benefits, except for serious illness benefits?

    No.

    I think, it might be the best thing for this country and give the people back their drive for self sufficiency and ambition.

    Do you seriously think so? The people who don't have a drive for self sufficieny and ambition won't suddenley become motivated and independant. They'll just move to other (chiefly illegal) methods of surviving, as many do anyway.

    Quite frankly the best way to motivate people is by creating opportunity. The lack of motivation many have is caused by benefit traps on one hand (although now new measures remove the 'penlaty' of starting work to a greater extent than before), and lack of any opportunity for betterment on the other.

    The true parasitic element can't be changed, but for many real work opportunities or educational opportunities are denied them - often the former because of the lack of the latter. Give them the opportunities and a smooth transtion to work and you get someone back as a nett contributor to society.

    Cut of benefits and you just cause more problems. Attack the reasons why many are on benefits and you reduce the number on benefits. Yo! tal!!!!

    I LOVE the idea of chav-chasing death squads....

    Oh, they have these in Brazil to deal with the street children...

    Jeepers creepers - have you lot been reading the Daily Mail again??? It's not serious you know, try to treat it like the beano

    The voice of reason - this hoodie/chav nonsense is the 2005 media 'thang', and all it is is a thang. Last year it was immigrants. Think about WHY a news item is making you think the way it is, otherwise you're a puppet on a string being jerked around by a journalist. Hint; this is not dignified.

    As for melting old people for glue... think of the smell! They honk bad enough as it is.

    What I want to know is why people do not have as much enthusiasm for going after the mega-rich. Quite seriously lower tax bands for the lowest paid could easily be paid for by taxing the super rich. The poor get richer, the rich are rich anyway, so fuck 'em, what's one Rolex less?

    And thank you Mutz; I was going to use corporate corruption as the killer punch to all this misplaced hate of those on benefit some have, and all the misapprehensions about the damage welfare does to society that others have.

    Big business screws the country 40 times harder than all people on welfare put together.

    However, it's much easier to pick on the poor, they are an easy target.

    The very ones who don`t pay workers a living wage ... thinking Walmart, McDonald`s, etc. etc. etc.

    Did you hear Mr Walmart died in a crash yesterday? Awww... poor little dead billionaire exploiting bastard...

    I have of one single mother who said that the reason they started Welfare State was so she could have babies at taxpayers expenses or something like that

    And I heard of one person who said there was a UFO behind a comet? What idiots say is not of any interest.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    So, I should conclude that your (Britain's) form of socialism works about as well as our form of socialism does here in the States?

    Some of the comments you folks made in this thread sound as warm and caring as George Bush JR make Young Republican's rally.

    I will be bracing for a rush of imagrant UK'ers.... I guess ya'all can hoe cotton and pick tomatos like all the other boat people when you get here.

    ~Hill

  • badboy
    badboy

    The attitude of some people on welfare is that it is set up exclusively for them to be a parasite on society.

    In one US State where they actually abolish welfare,they was no increase in crime.

    In another,Wisconoin,they started saving money before they introduced thenew system because a lot of layabouts realized they were serious and looked for work.

  • fleaman uk
    fleaman uk


    this hoodie/chav nonsense is the 2005 media 'thang', and all it is is a thang. Last year it was immigrants. Think about WHY a news item is making you think the way it is, otherwise you're a puppet on a string being jerked around by a journalist. Hint; this is not dignified.

    Sorry..usually i agree with a lot of what you say..but thats ball-locks.These feral scum bags are a genuine problem in many parts of the UK...my Cousin was beaten up badly by "such like ones" 6 months ago.It is not a rare occurrance.Though i do agree that the media have given an age old problem a new soundbite friendly tag.

    Jeremy Clarkson says the best way to get rid of the problem is for 50 year old Men to go around in packs wearing hoodies and base ball caps...the uncool factor would destroy the movement!

    ...and immigration is very much an ongoing debate.

  • upside/down
    upside/down
    It's not the welfare that causes this problem, it's the sexual education.

    You contradicted yourself... There have NEVER been more "educated" people than now.

    And the problem grow... stop being PC and call a spade a spade...it won't kill you.

    "Education" is the sacred cow of the PC world. I have watched the profiteering by corporate America all in the name of "education"... My kids schools spend MILLIONS on new laptop computere...but the kids can't write..., they buy new gymnasiums and pools... while laying off math and history teachers, they bring in fast food and soda-pop machines and the kids can hardly read...

    But every kid knows how to use a condom and where to get confidential birth control and pregnancy advice...

    I hope the new "educated" generations can make $$ playing Xbox. That's about all most of 'em are good at. Oh yeah and f*cking like rabbits.

    u/d (of the sooo not PC class)

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    fleaman uk

    Sorry..usually i agree with a lot of what you say..but thats ball-locks.

    These feral scum bags are a genuine problem in many parts of the UK...

    Please provide statistics to prove that this year is any different in crime trends et. al. that chaves/hoodies are meant to cause to last year.

    Though i do agree that the media have given an age old problem a new soundbite friendly tag.

    So nothing has changed, other than terminology? Is the problem worse than last year or not? (answer, no, it's no worse) Or is it just being talked about more? (answer, yes, the chav/hoodie thing just this year's brain-dead journalistic way of generating a news item, as immigrants were last year).

    I think we're actually agreeing but differing in the way we say it.

    ...and immigration is very much an ongoing debate.

    Yes, there's people who don't need state pensions who oppose it and people who do want state pensions who support it, and then people who don't know that without immigrants the state pension is dead as we know it and oppose it. I think that covers it.

    upside/down

    It's not the welfare that causes this problem, it's the sexual education.

    You contradicted yourself... There have NEVER been more "educated" people than now.

    Straw man. I didn't say that. There is no contradiction in what I said unless you falsely characterise my argument.

    I said;

    It's not the welfare that causes this problem, it's the sexual education

    ... thus linking pregnancy to SEX education, not general educational levels. I also said;

    more young people are in higher education than ever before

    People are not going to University to study sex education, generally speaking. In anycase, by that point it is too late. Those who get to University are normnally the ones who don't get pregnant.

    Poor sex education generates our pregnant teenager problem. There are more people in higher education than ever before. Those are both facts.

    And the problem grow... stop being PC and call a spade a spade...it won't kill you.

    "Education" is the sacred cow of the PC world. I have watched the profiteering by corporate America all in the name of "education"... My kids schools spend MILLIONS on new laptop computere...but the kids can't write..., they buy new gymnasiums and pools... while laying off math and history teachers, they bring in fast food and soda-pop machines and the kids can hardly read...

    And the problem grow? What were you saying about literacy standards?

    From my imperfect understanding of it, the American education system is going to hell in a hand-basket, although there are sharp regional differences. However, I'm not adequately informed about this subject to make anything more than a passing comment. I'm addressing the topic of the thread.

    But every kid knows how to use a condom and where to get confidential birth control and pregnancy advice...

    Obviously not. Have you SEEN the stats on teen pregnancy? Do you know what the main theme of current sex education is in the USA?

  • upside/down
    upside/down
    Poor sex education generates our pregnant teenager problem

    Myth (but very PC)... especially if you're "selling" sex ed. In generations past there was NO sex ed... and the problem was small.

    But every kid knows how to use a condom and where to get confidential birth control and pregnancy advice...

    Obviously not. Have you SEEN the stats on teen pregnancy? Do you know what the main theme of current sex education is in the USA?

    No they DO know and are taught... I didn't say they put it into practice. AIDS is a classic example... knowledge doesn't stop humans from doing what they want anyway...but like my Dad taught us... you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT... but the consequences are inescapable...so be prepared. It worked for us... but we're old fashioned... and not PC...and except for my stint as a Dub... I did OK, can't blame anyone for that screw-up... live and learn.

    And I do not know the main theme of current sex ed in the USA... only what my kids are being taught...and it's pathetic. Considering the millions of dollars that go into it...

    But I don't entrust my childrens working knowledge of the world...and sex to The State. I do it myself, as all parents should.

    "I never let my schooling interfere with my education..."- Mark Twain.

    Don't get me wrong... I wasn't at big odds with your comments... just a couple of points I took issue with.

    u/d (of the thinks welfare sucks, cuz I was on it for a while, class)

  • fleaman uk
    fleaman uk

    I think we're actually agreeing but differing in the way we say it.

    Fair point Abbaddon.

    No,i dont have stats to hand..but then 50 % of stats are rubbish any way.You have to admit (actually,no you dont,thats the beauty of a DB) Youth "culture"at the minute is geared up almost totally in a negative fashion...thats not because the Media tell us so..it is evident in any Provincial Town Centre on any Weekend Evening,it can be quite intimidating....Maybe i have noticed it more ,purely because a member of my Family was a victim of these "bored Youngsters"and their culture of "respect"...hence my hatred for all things "chavvy,hoodie,happy slapping etc".

  • Gill
    Gill

    Let me tell you about the meeting at my children's school that they were having for parents to see what their 12 year old children would be learning in sex education class. We got to view all the 'educational aids' and the films that they would be seeing.

    On the last film, which was so bloody graphic I nearly fell of my chair, their was a couple 'at it' with a vengeance.

    After the film ended and I recovered my composure the teacher asked, 'are there any questions?' Well all we had seen was the actual biology and 'action' of sexual intercourse.

    I put my hand up and asked, 'Why are you teaching them this? Where's the contraception and disease advice?

    Isn't this like teaching my 12 year old to drive a car and then not telling him he has to put a seat belt on and oh...wait till you're 16 at LEAST?!

    Needless to say, the teacher was speechless for a few moments. Then she replied 'we teach them about contraception and disease when they're 14.'

    Ah, so there's the problem. The kids get to know how to 'drive the car' for two years before they get told to 'put on a seat belt'.
    Hence, teenage pregnancy problem!

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Parents people.... PARENTS!!!

    Don't expect the "State" to do YOUR job.

    u/d

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