Conditional love

by noidea 77 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  noidea

  RealElder,

  Thank you for your reply.
  

  I need some time to reply to you,

  I fully understand your time issue with all responsibilities that go with being an elder.

  if I could leave you with one thought; don't give up on Jehovah and don't feel that if you are not associating with JW's you are going to be singled out for punishment by Him. There are a lot of us (elders too), that feel this way and are convinced we have a loving God that judges us by our heart condition.

  I think you are the very first JW that has ever said that to me. something I have felt for along time.
  It has always been brought to my attention that you can't have one without the other. I look forward to your
  replies to my questions as I feel that others on this DB are too.
• 

  slipnslidemaster

  I think that I'm offended. I'm serious. I'm the only one that feels uncondition love towards my children?

  I wasn't makeing a joke about the pets either. I take it that this is a homo sapiens club only here?

  WTF? My points weren't valid?

  Slipnslidemaster: "The gods too are fond of a joke."
  - Aristotle
• 

  dedalus

  I'm going to be a father soon, so this is something I given some thought to recently.

  The way I see it, raising your children as Witnesses (i.e. with conditional love only) amounts to issueing your baby a contract the moment it is born:

  ----------

  I, Dedalus Daddy, being of sound mind and body, promise to love and demonstrate my love for you, Dedalus Jr., providing the following criteria are met:

  1) You abstain from celebrating this, the very day of your birth.

  2) You abstain from celebrating any other holidays save the death of Jesus Christ, who's been missing in action for the last two thousand years.

  3) You abstain from any other church, doctrine, belief, thought, philosophy, etc., except that which I have chosen for you.

  4) You abstain from making friends other than the ones I choose for you.

  5) You abstain from dating and falling in love until you have the financial means to purchase a house, car, and related amenities.

  6) You abstain from all criticism of the Organization, even when it is obvious that it is committing grave atrocities against the innocent.

  In addition to the above prohibitions, Dedalus Jr. must also agree to:

  1) Attend all meetings designated by Jehovah's Witnesses.

  2) Distribute Watchtower propoganda every month, without fail.

  3) Speak the "pure language," in the form of mindless cliches echoed out of the aforementioned Watchtowers.

  If the above criteria are not met, I reserve the right to withdraw utterly from my child's life, to shun and slander him/her, to degrade, discourage, and bitterly disparage every effort my child makes that runs contrary to my will. I reserve the right to threaten my child with foster care, the right to remove my child from my home should he/she persist in a mode of thinking contrary to my own, and the right to encourage other family members to follow my example.

  With Christian Love,

  Dad

  ----------

  I can't imagine having these kinds of thoughts in my head as I watch my son or daughter come into this world. But for Witnesses, such thoughts are prerequisites for parenthood. How can you properly cherish your own child, if you are mentally prepared to abandon it someday, simply for not holding an abstract belief?

  Not for me, that. Sure, I'll be disappointed in choices my son or daughter makes ... that's inevitable, I suppose. But my child would always have a place to come home to, period.

  Dedalus
• 

  noidea

  slipnslidemaster,

  Your not alone, I agree with every thing you said, pets and all.
  In fact, now that I think about it maybe that is how the org. expects us to act. Like a dog to it's master complete subjection no matter how a pet is treated.
  No matter how bad it can be mistreated, when loyal, they always come back for more.
  What they didn't expect is that one day... the loyalty wears thin and they jump up and bite you in the ass, (teeth showing) Ruff, Ruff WBTS
• 

  Winston

  I don't even think their is such a thing as unconditional Love.

  Anybody who says they have it for this or that is deceiving himself.

  Anyway it is imposible to prove that one has unconditional Love?

  I dare anyone to prove they have unconditional Love? Its just a lot of big talk that leads to nothing.

  All love is conditional on some points that is a true fact of life.

  It's just that some put too many condititons on their Love and that what's wrong.

  Real love has conditions but they are alway in harmony with what love is.(not out of harmony).

  We need to keep learning what real Love is so we can live that way.

  The Never Ending Search For Truth
• 

  dedalus

  Real love has conditions but they are always in harmony with what love is.

  What a bunch of circular nonsense. By this reasoning you can say that any behavior you exhibit is motivated by "love," since love is a mere force unto itself.

  No doubt you're going to trump up some outrageous scenario, like, what if my child joined a gang of pygmy marauders and became a serial rapist and robbed monasteries and assassinated nuns -- would I still love my child then, or would these conditions impose limitations on my love?

  But in the real world, I see parents withdrawing love over theological differences -- period. The gang of pygmy marauders is usually no more than a difference of opinion. And your highfalutin "conditional love," so philosophically pure, is really just an excuse to indulge your own prejudices.

  Dedalus
• 

  RealElder

  Noidea, thanks for your patience. You seem like a reasonable, thoughtful person, I wish I could speak with your mother and find out why she has not, at the very least, kept in contact with her grandchildren. Your mother needs to do some research into the latest publications where she will find out several things:
  1. She can associate with you when it comes to necessary family matters. The birth of your children, the care of your children, sickness etc.
  2. She has absolutly no restrictions on her as far as seeing her grandchildren (unless you put them there). In fact, she has a responsibility to try and teach them about God (if you allow her to).

  As far as your questions:
  [We are suppose to have the true faith.] Yes we are, and since we feel we do it is up to us to live up to that responsibility. The fact that some feel we are "crackpots" is really predjudicial. Some JW's are but most are not.

  [They cut their families off if they don't become Witnesses themselves.] They shouldn't, in fact they should try to set the best example they can without compromising on doctrinal issue's. That is admittidly hard for some and some have not done things correctly. I don't know how long you have been "out" but things are changing in this regard (but not in print)!

  [We are told to go and make disciples. I find that hard to do.] So do I. In fact, I think the way we "do service" now is a terrible waste of resources and we should look to another method to get the bible's message out. This could get me in trouble :-)

  [I can understand "New Light" if it's in learning deeper thing about a subject.] This is a big problem for me as well, but not so big that I can't get past the fact that no other religion even comes close to exlaining the bible to me in a way that seems to make sense. I have studied other religions and what they teach and the "truth" still makes the most sense.

  I hope this helps, I'll reply tomorrow if you want one.
• 

  Winston

  De

  Dedalus,

  I'm just saying we all show conditional love.

  We can brag and brag about how unconditional are love is but it's all BS.

  You prove your love over time and events talk is cheap.

  I don't trust people who talk about how great their Love is(I don't believe they are really honest with themselves).

  Love is talked about alot, and we can point to ourselves and stick our chest out so what, prove it don't talk about it.

  Prove it over time.

  The Never Ending Search For Truth
• 

  Richie

  RealElder, I have been reading your posts with interest and the more so since you are still in that capacity of serving as an elder...
  I must applaud you for the fact that you do show concern for things which are being discussed here and that you too feel that many injustices are being promulgated by the Society as a whole!!!
  I do agree that we should love Jehovah God and his Son but more so in a focused way without being squashed into an organizational corridor where believers practise their belief with the attachment of that fear-factor. When one is "faithful" to the organization, then one assumes all other implications connected to the directives set forth by this organization all the while drenching it in bible-truth to make the entire exercise legitimate and spiritual at least in the eyes of the beholder, i.e. the Witnesses themselves.
  Let me give you just one single example of this ingrained injustice (which incidentally cannot be construed as done only by men, as otherwise one could easily say that men are imperfect whereas we should love and worship Jehovah and Jesus individually, so now these men are thus "excused" and the responsibility is again on the individual how he serves his God etc):
  These are examples of three men - each a religious instructor of note in his particular religion, with each situation oming to a culmination in the same year - illustrate this:
  One, for more than a decade, wrote books and regularly gave lectures presenting views that struck at the very heart of the authority structure of his religion.
  Another gave a talk before an audience of more than a thousand persons in which he took issue with his religious organization's teachings about a key date and its significance in fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
  The third made no such public pronouncements. His only expressions of difference of viewpoint were confined to personal conversations with close friends.
  Yet the strictness of the official action taken toward each of these men by their respective religious organization was in proportion to the seriousness of their actions, except for one!!!
  The first person mentioned was Roman Catholic Priest Hans Kueng; he was severely punished and removed as a Catholic theologian.
  The second person was Desmond Ford, a 7th Day Adventist professor, who was ultimately removed of his ministerial status.
  The third person was Edward Dunlap, a registrar of the missionary school of JW's, the WBS of Gilead. He expressed his difference of viewpoint on certain teachings only in private conversation with friends of long standing. After over 40 years of association, Dunlap was dismissed from his work and home at the headquarters and disfellowshipped from the organization. What a incredible paradox!!!

  Something to think about......

  Richie :*)

  You are the music as long as the music last...............
• 

  noidea

  RealElder,

  Thanks for getting back to this so quickly.

  I wish I could speak with your mother and find out why she has not, at the very least, kept in contact with her grandchildren.

  You must have me mixed up with Shaneliza, not to worry it is hard to keep everyone straight.

  But, I am

  a reasonable, thoughtful person,

  LOL! (just a little humor to lightened the mood)

  back to our conversation.....

  I don't know how long you have been "out" but things are changing in this regard (but not in print)!

  I wouldn't say that I was "out" but very borderline and very confused. You say things are changing in what way? I am pretty much up to date and feel more coldness from the org. as a whole than ever before. If things are not put into print then how is the avg. person going to know of the changes?

  [I can understand "New Light" if it's in learning deeper thing about a subject.] This is a big problem for me as well, but not so big that I can't get past the fact that no other religion even comes close to exlaining the bible to me in a way that seems to make sense. I have studied other religions and what they teach and the "truth" still makes the most sense.

  I have never studied any other religion. I don't plan to. I am starting to wonder at this point is religion really the answer to the question. One can have a religion but if they don't come into a personal relationship with Jehovah and appreciation for Jesus ransom, religion will get them no where.

  My whole life I have been trying to serve Jehovah by way of an org. something was lost in doing so. I was trying to find a relationship through a mediator, not Jesus but the WBTS. It was like in the back of my mind it was them that really had to be pleased (meeting attendance, field service reports, prepare for every meeting, ) Always do more, do more, and always feeling like no matter how hard I tried it was never enough.

  The main focus was always for the org. Yes, it was suppose to be for Jehovah but, the org. are the one's we turn our time into. Yet, Jehovah already knows what we are doing. That is what counts. All in the name of serving Jehovah in an organized fashion? Then why if your time reports weren't up to what they feel you can do, you are weak? Sure they say don't compare yourself with anyone else. But the one's up on the platform doing a demonstration for field service are not the one's with low service reports. Why? because they are not considered an example for the cong. yet all have different circumstances.

  There are so many that live a double life. Have you ever stopped and wondered why? Maybe it is because Jehovah is not real to many because they serve only an org.

  Another thing that has always bothered me is that years ago I heard that if a person read apostate material (like Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz) that 95-98% would leave the org. Why do you think that is so? If we have the Truth then it should stand on it's own.