Scriptural Validity of Earthly Paradise?

by stevieb1 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  ianao

  It's the CLASH.........
• 

  ozziepost

  Is this thread in 2 forums?

  Ozzie
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest "Mike"... may you have peace!

  This is not the first of our discussions, yes, so I can only say to you that I cannot dispute any of what you have stated, only to say that such has not been revealed to me by my Lord. What HAS been revealed to me, is that when my Lord said that some standing with him would not die until they had first seen my Lord coming "in" and/or "into" his kingdom, was actually fulfilled. John saw both events take place... my Lord receiving... or 'coming INTO'... his kingdom... as had Daniel... AND my Lord coming... or 'arriving'... 'in' his kingdom... before he died.

  Revelation 6:1 (coming into... or receiving... his kingdom)
  Revelation 19:11 (coming... or arriving... in his kingdom)
  Daniel 7:13, 14

  So, the saying was true, and the prophecy fulfilled. The Church (and by this, I gather you mean that Catholic Church, vs. the Body of Christ, the Congregation of the Firstborn), of course, would not know this and deem the fulfillment of my Lord's words a mystery, as such had not been REVEALED to them... by my Lord... for they are not his.

  Matthew 13:10-16

  The same applies to many today, who, because of 'unreceptive' hearts, cannot hear... and 'get the sense' of things, 'sacred secrets' that are revealed ONLY by my Lord to those who belong to him... and LISTEN to him.

  Matthew 17:3
  John 10:1-6, 27
  John 14:23
  John 15:15, 16

  As for Mr. 'Pom's assertion that:

  The FULL Torah is God's ONLY pre-Christian writings. By FULL Torah I mean The Law (Torah, first five),The Prophets (The Nevi'im) The Writings (Kethuvim). That is the complete OT "Tanakh." That is all the pre-Christian teachings anyone needs.

  I must say to you that it is HE that is a 'multiplier of words' in that, for one, while it is commonly accepted that the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, are the Torah, his assertion of what is acceptable is in opposition to what I have heard from my Lord.

  In truth, while many BELIEVE that the Israelites, Jews AND Samaritans, of the days of my Lord's flesh put their faith in a 'Torah', they in fact put their faith in "Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms". However, the first five (5) books of the BIBLE... the "Pentateuch"... are not "Moses". The Book of Moses, which also CONTAINED the Law, has long been lost from the Bible 'canon', along with the Books of Baruch, Enoch... and others. "Genesis", according to my Lord, was NOT a part of the Book of Moses, for Genesis... accordingly to my Lord... was actually written... by Joseph... when he was imprisoned in Egypt.

  But my Lord did not leave us without witness, for in fact it is recorded in the Bible what my Lord considered 'scripture' or holy writings LITERALLY to be (and since Mr. 'Pom believes in the Bible to such a GREAT degree, he might not want to dispute this too much):

  "These are my words which I spoke to you
  while I was yet with you, that ALL the
  things written in the Law of Moses
  and in the Prophets and Psalms about
  ME... must be fulfilled."

  Luke 24:44

  But how do we know that these, the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms, are 'scriputure'? As I said, we were not left without witness, for after asking his disciples about his NEED to suffer and enter into his glory (their faith was wavering after his death), the account tells us that:

  "Commending at MOSES and ALL THE PROPHETS,
  he INTEPRETED to them the things pertaining
  to HIM in ALL the scriptures."

  Luke 24:27

  There was no mention of Israelite histories, chronologies, proverbs... or the creation itself. But my Lord did not stop there. He said to his disciples something VERY profound, that was said to me quite early in my walking with him, that has taught me NOT to 'put my trust in earthling man'... nor to listen to the 'multiplication of words'... nor to rely on the 'false stylus of the secretaries' in trying to understand what is 'written', by whom, for what purpose, and what it all should mean... to ME. My Lord said... to ME... LONG before I ever read it 'written', that:

  "You are searching the scriptures...
  because you THINK that by means of THEM...
  you will have everlasting life."

  And he was right; I read and read and studied and studied, trying to find the 'answers' to many 'sacred secrets', including the meaning of life, what the future held, and what it had to say about God and Jesus, if anything. My Lord went on:

  "And these (the scriptures)...
  are the very ones that bear witness...
  about ME."

  And knew that indeed they did. If ANYONE or ANYTHING had information about the Christ, certainly... the Bible did. And I was going to find such information if I possibly could. But my Lord continued, and said:

  "And yet...
  you do not want to come... TO ME...
  That you may have life...
  and have it in abundance."

  John 5:39, 40

  And he was right: I had wanted to 'find' life... in the scriptures and other 'holy' writings. But I know understand, as I did at the very moment my Lord revealed it TO me... that I can read, and research, and review, and reread... that I would NEVER understand, know, and have TRUTH... because by doing so, I was leaving 'interpretation'... up to myself... and others of earthling man. And interpretation... belongs to God.

  And so, I invite you... as I invite any and all who 'wish' it, who are 'thirsting', and who are 'hearing'... to have your ears 'excavated'. As my Lord himself said to my Father:

  "Sacrifice and offering... you did NOT delight in...
  but... THESE EARS OF MINE... YOU OPENED UP."

  Psalm 40:6

  And so, what MOST people don't realize is that my Lord and my Father truly wish TWO main things from us... FAITH... and OBEDIENCE... to the point where we LISTEN... with spiritual ears and can thus 'hear'... what the SPIRIT... says to us... rather than what flesh... or stone tablets... or ink and paper... say.

  As my Father said:

  "This is my son... LISTEN TO HIM."

  Many... listen to what the 'scriptures' have to say. As for me and MY household, however, we listen to the SPIRIT, as it speaks to us from above the Ark of OUR Covenant(s) with God, mediated by Christ, our HEARTS. It is there that I 'hear' my Lord... speak to me... guide me... direct me... TEACH me... into all that is true. For HE is the TRUTH... and there no other... and no other 'source' of Truth. Not even the Bible, the Torah, the Pentateuch, the Mishna, the Talmud, the Apocrypha, the Koran, the Gemmara... or the scriptures.

  I bid you peace... and 'enlightenment'... by the only TRUE Light that exists from my Father, JAH OF ARMIES, who IS the Holy One of Israel, which Light... is His Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

  Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and ALL those that 'go with' them, and a slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  MikeNightHaShev

  A Guest:
  then your saying Jesus kingdom was in death and you reinvented the Kingdom as well. In John Jesus admits his kingdom is not of this earth thus he is teaching it in death (the curse) which is why you are acursed of him who is cursed and that's why his followers went down in death in a cursed manner by the hands of their enemies becuase it was spoken and warned they would.

  I don't see many people rushing to go to be with Jesus in his kingdom of death. By creating a kingdom outside this creation is a slap in the face to the creator and this gracious gift of life.

  Pomegranate:
  by bringing up the Talmud you are selectively using one aspect mentioned in which I myself do not even hold to, while avoiding the rest of the many facts, this is called a smokescreen and we are not buying it. Please do not insult our intelligence and we will not insult yours.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>>by bringing up the Talmud you are selectively using one aspect mentioned in which I myself do not even hold to<<

  You selectively brought up the Talmud not me:

  >>In the Talmud, Michael’s relationship to the other angels is compared with that on earth of the high priest to Israel;
  The throne of G-d is compared to the throne and temple of G-d in Jerusalem...because they are but in a future time the same.<<

  Sounds like you are holding onto it for support. If not, your post is confusing at best.
• 

  MikeNightHaShev

  You are doing it again Pomagranate, you are trying to insult our intelligence by taking one smal portion of the post and avoiding all the evidence by making assumptions and opinions on that one small portion.

  I used the one portion of the Talmud because it shows the traditions of the head of the congregation. Since The bible and scrolls agrees with the Talmud on this issue then use of the Talmud is an added backing to the discussion since it verifies the same scenerio and helps paint a picture. By denouncing the post on this issue avoids the fact the issue is agreed upon by other sources and plus avoids using the bible verses which validate the points expressed. Your need to smokescreen and denounce what the bible says means you denounce the Bible and since you can't openly admit that you resort to smoekscreening by raising an issue on something esle like the Talmud. Nice try but I see people like you every day coming a mile away.
• 

  pomegranate

  Just use your Bible.

  Everything from man is traditional garbage. The Bible needs nothing else to support it's subject matter, It stands on its own.

  Smoke screen??? Have you really read your ridiculously confusing posts that add unecessary complications (multiplied words) to the truth of which is so simple?

  You blow the smoke not me.
• 

  MikeNightHaShev

  I don't see you rushing to throw your NT out the window...

  Dr. Herbert Marsh, Nineteenth--Century English Bishop:
  It is a certain fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations made by Origen, whose authority was so great in the Christian Church (A.D. 230) that emendations which he proposed, though, as he himself acknowledged, they were supported by the evidence of no manuscript, were very generally received.*
  *Michaelis, Introduction to the New Testament, ed. Dr. Herbert Marsh (London, 1828), vol. 2, p. 368.

  Johann Lorenz Von Mosheim, Eighteenth--Century Ecclesiastical Historian:
  Not long after Christ's ascension into heaven, several histories of his life and doctrines, full of pious frauds and fabulous wonders, were composed by persons whose intentions perhaps were not bad, but whose writings discovered the greatest superstition and ignorance. Nor was this all; productions appeared which were imposed upon the world by fraudulent men, [such] as the writings of the holy apostles.”*
  * Von Mosheim, Ecclesiastical History (London, 1810), vol. 1, p. 109.

  St. Gregory, Fourth--Century Bishop of Nazianzus, writing to St.Jerome:
  A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.
  7. C. F. Volney, The Ruins (Boston, 1872), p. 177.

  Dr. Conyers Middleton, Eighteenth Century:
  There never was any period of time in all ecclesiastical history in which so many rank heresies were publicly professed nor in which so many spurious books were forged and published by the Christians, under the names of Christ, and the apostles, and the apostolic writers, as in those primitive ages. Several of these forged books are frequently cited, and applied [in] defense of Christianity, by the most eminent fathers of the same ages, as true and genuine pieces.
  8. Middleton, vol. 1, p. 59.

  Dr. I. Hooykaas, Nineteenth--Century Reverend:
  Not one of these five books (four Gospels and Acts) [was] really written by the person whose name it bears, and they are all of more recent date than the heading would lead us to suppose.
  9. Drs. H. Oort, I. Hooykaas, and A. Kuneh, The Bible for Learners, trans. Philip A. Wieksteed (Boston, 1878), vol. 3, p. 24.

  St. Faustus, Fifth--Century French Bishop:
  Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since-as already it has been often proved-these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them.10
  It is certain that the New Testament was not written by Christ himself, nor by his apostles, but a long while after them, by some unknown persons, who, lest they should not be credited when they wrote of affairs they were little acquainted with, affixed to their works the names of the apostles, or of such as were supposed to have been their companions, asserting that what they had written themselves was written according to these persons to whom they ascribed it.11

  To strengthen belief in the resurrection of Jesus, St. Irenaeus invented many stories of others being raised from the dead.12
  As Jeremiah Jones, an eighteenth--century reverend, comments:
  Such pious frauds were very common among Christians even in the first three centuries; and a forgery of this nature, with the view above mentioned, seems natural and probable.13
  10. Taylor, Diegesis, p. 66. 11. Ibid., p. 114. 12. Doane, p. 231. 13. Ibid.

  "Should one continue to base one's life on a system of belief that--for all its occasional wisdom and frequent beauty--is demonstrably untrue?"
  -- Charles Templeton, former right-hand man to Billy Graham in Farewell to God

  following quotations from Catholic sources:

  "If Christ Himself had written the book and set it forth as a text-book, so to speak, of His religion, we would rest securely in it, and have no need to inquire farther. That the Bible is not a book, like the Koran for instance, set forth by the founder of the religion as its authoritative exposition, is in fact the fundamental weakness of Bible Protestantism.
  If Christ had intended His religion to be propagated and preserved by means of a book, can any conceivable reason be urged why He should not have written one? Of His ability to do so there can, for the Christian, be no question." (Plain Facts for Fair Minds, p. 26).
  "Is it not strange that if Christianity were to be learned from the Bible only, that Christ himself never wrote a line or commanded his apostles to write; for their divine commission was not to write but to preach the gospel." (Question Box, p. 70).
  "Christ gave his disciples no command to write, but only to teach." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 767).

  Most recent admission:
  The Star, 1994 Manila, Philippines

  VATICAN CITY, Italy - The Vatican criticized a literal interpretation of the
  Bible
  and said the fundamentalist approach to scripture was a kind of intellectual
  suicide. A Vatican document said fundamentalism refuses to admit that the
  **inspired Word of God has been expressed in human language... by human
  authors possessed of limited capacities and resources.**
  The 125-page document, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, was
  written by the Pontifical Biblical Com-mission, a group of scholars who
  assist the Pope in the study of scripture.
• 

  pomegranate

  There, we can see your scales now.

  1 Cor 1:18-25
  18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

  "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
  the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

  20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

  1 Cor 3:19-20
  19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

  Rom 3:4
  Let God be true, and every man a liar.

  Go away then and put faith in your fellow liars.
• 

  MikeNightHaShev

  See I told you you can't trust the texts they contradict historical accounts and much more evidence.

  Example: the cross was instituted by Constantine as a sign he had to conquer with, actually it's the mark of death thus mark of the beast. It had nothing to do with the man named Yeshu son of Mary (100BC) because he was stoned then hung like book of acts and Peter says Slew then hung as in a hanging.
  Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree" Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree" Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree" 1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"

  This was a common form of punishment even in Joshuas day read the book of Joshua and see the same type stoning, hanging deaths and tomb accounts.
  It was the later Christ figure named Yehuda who was the Galilean (6BC)Martyr who died on the cross by the hands of Rome for his revolt of the taxes.

  If Jesus has a cross in his accounts before he was persecuted then that should trigger your natural instincts to question the cross, as how can it be part of the story to carry one before they even put him on one?
  It is however possible this shows the carpenter Yeshu son of Mary (100BC) was making Crosses for Jannaeus during the Pharisee revolt when Jannaeus sent them to the cross around 88-105BC
  Salome Jannaeus' wife was a follower of Yeshu and friend so it's possible having his cross and carrying it shows Jesus actually made the torture devices that killed his fellow brethren.

  Still want the cross?