Trinity- True or False (page 18)

JosephMalik

You believe that Satan made the earth, plants and animals, LT, No. YHWH made the earth alone. As for plants and animals such precise detail is not provided in scripture. LT: Aren't you side-stepping Col.1:16 which speaks of him creating the things in the heavens, too? The context goes beyond merely governments, here. The things in the heavens are the governmental structure that exists to maintain order upon this earth until the coming kingdom replaces them. The context clearly supports this despite your denial. If it goes beyond such government then prove it. Notice: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Heaven (ruling classes) Earth (those governed by such Heavens) broken down to be Thrones (human) dominions (human) principalities (human) powers (human) visible (such ruling from nearby) invisible (such ruling from far away as in Rome). All human things pertaining to this earth and its populations apart from the Church. Then this relationship is included in with the body or Church "that in all things he might have the preeminence." Where are the stars, the planets, the trees and all the rest? How do you arrive at such conclusions? LT: Besides, isn't creatorship again reserved to "God"? What makes God "God"? Are you saying that delegating such tasks makes some sort of difference? If so how? Of what use then were the many assistants that God had serving Him then? Are you basing your theology on such speculation or are you making this up as you go along? Joseph

LittleToe

Jo:
I guess it was this comment that I was addressing:

No trees, plants or animals included just this specific world of humans and only those that qualify to become Sons of God. Who created the animals or at least some of them? Who do you think had authority over such animals and used them improperly?

I'm assuming that you are stating that someone else was the creator of such things as the serpents? Do you have references for that? As for the government thing, that would also be an interpretation. We all interpret stuff, and I like that your mind works on these things. It gives something to chew on. There seem to be too many elements to interpret it as simply as you suggest, though (at least that would be in my estimation ). But. I'll ask again: What makes God "God"?

JosephMalik

What makes God "God"?

LT,

It is not the three “O” or the way they are understood by most today. What makes God “God” is simply the fact that He has authority over our very lives. That is essentially what God means.

I did not see you support your claims regarding Colossians. You had an interpretation before so then how did you arrive at it?

Joseph

zen nudist

my youngest brother who has never been a JW nor interested in bible matters until recently came up with a different

take on john 1:1, which I found was not as unique as I had first thought....

Word or Logos can be corrolated with the plan or promises of God...by many verses

and thus John 1:1 would be saying

in the beginning was the divine plan

the plan was the manifestation of the mind of God

by means of this plan all things were created.

The divine plan was made flesh in Jesus as he came to manifest the mind and will of God to mankind...to fullfill the plan

and to make good on all the promises

zen nudist

As to Michael being Jesus.

names in the bible seem to have a functional quality at times

as Jesus means domino's delivers or er, YHWH saves... it is a name which shows his function.

Immanuel means God is with us [for a change]

and Micha-el mean who is like El? or God.

to me it seems clear that no bible writer thought that Jesus and michael were the same guy

But there are some striking parallels such as Daniel's description of Prince Michael standing up [often used for taking kingship] and Jesus nearly quoting this word for word as referring to himself.

and Jesus never being mentioned with michael sort of like superman and clark kent, while attributes are often seemingly interchangeable

like Jesus coming with the call of the archangel.

Cygnus

I've read articles written by 7th Day Adventists, and by neo-classic trinitarians, that identify Michael with Jesus in passages such as Daniel 12 and Revelation 12. It just goes to show that dogmatism stifles the imaination. And, BTW, the WT seems to generally qualify their Michael=Jesus platform, much like I just spoke of their position (e.g. "seems to", and "would reasonably appear that"). Edited to add: I know I said I'd back out of this thread, but I can't help but toss this bit of WT propaganda in.

*** w69 12/1 p. 735 Questions from Readers ***

The exalted Jesus Christ and the anointed Christians resurrected to rule in heaven with him are actually on a higher level than the spirit creatures normally called angels. Jesus and his anointed followers in heaven are immortal. (1 Tim. 6:15, 16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54) In contrast, the angels are mortal, as can be seen from the fact that Satan and his disobedient angels will be destroyed. (Rev. 20:10, 14; Luke 8:30, 31) Additionally, the Bible shows that Christ has been elevated above the angels and that his anointed followers will share in judging angels.—Heb. 1:4; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Cor. 6:3.

Nonetheless, Jesus after his resurrection is still called Michael the archangel. (Jude 9; Rev. 12:7) And it appears that the exalted Jesus is referred to as an angel in Revelation 20:1 for, as God’s king, he is the logical one to bind Satan and the demons. So evidently, the term "angel" as designating an office may be used in a general sense to refer to all heavenly spirit creatures. (Emphasis, bold and italics, mine)

Hellrider

I see this thread is coming to an end, I just have a couple of things to say:

1) Of course I knew that "the anointed ones" were supposed to rule in heaven under the authoroty of Jesus, who, in turn, would be under his Father Jehovah, but it had actually never crossed my mind that this would put "the annointed" one step above the other angels, in the hierarchy! I had, for some reason, actually never thought about it like that! And if I ever was sure JW-dom was a big hoax, this makes me even more sure. There was "an anointed" in our neighbouring congregation, and he would sometimes visit our congregation. There was this "aura" of mystique around him, he always had this "I know something you don`t"-look on his face. And his eyes were pale blue, cold as a frozen hell. What some saw as "mystique", I instinctively felt was evil. Kids often sense these things, I still believe that to these days, although I`m not otherwise superstitious. If that guy is going to be ruling with Jesus over the angels and all of (surviving) humanity, I wouldn`t want to be around anyway. And it`s so ridicolous, wouldn`t surprise me if this guy too was a janitor or a window-washer, his only joy in life was probably to walk around being on top of the food chain. What a dork.

2) I really see a problem with a couple of the conclusions to this thread, paricularly for JW-ideology. While I`m not so sure about the trinity-theory anymore, after some of the insightful posts on the thread, by JosephMalik, Cygnys and some others, I see a problem for JW-ideology. Remember when you were a dub, how the creation-of-everything-story in Genesis was emphasised much more than the one in the beginning of John? That`s how it was with us, anyway. And if JWs claim that Jesus is Michael the archangel, then they would also have to accept that Jesus/Michael is also the Word in John! And the Word is the one actually creating the world! Still, I have never heard a JW claim that Jesus aka the word aka Michael created the world! It was, according to JWs, Jehovah who created the world! Genesis was studied a lot, but not John! I had NEVER heard that it was Jesus that did it, before I heard it on this forum (however, I was only 17 when I left)! Was this something I should have been supposed to know? DO JWs believe that Jesus/the Word created the world? And actually, I had thought JWs believed that the Word was Gods force, the active force that the rest of Christianity calls "the holy ghost", the last "part" of the trinity! However, John makes perfectly clear (in my view) that the Word is Jesus Christ! If JWs believe he is not, then they are WRONG!

I would also like to see the justification for claiming that Jesus is really Michael the archangel. Where in the Bible is Michael mentioned?

If I thought I was confused before, I know I am confused now...

Cygnus

Hellrider, JWs have always believed the Word (Gr, LOGOS) was the prehuman angelic Jesus. And their interpretation of the creation account in John's prologue parallels Proverbs 8. Basically Jehovah created Jesus, then everything else was created 'by means of' him (or, "it" if you ask a Christadelphian). Lots of groups have their own ideas. Studying what they all believe about these passages is fun... for a while anyway.

Hellrider

Ok, thanks Cygnus, glad to have that cleared up. LoL, I`m learning a lot more about the Bible and JW-beliefs than I did back then. All I remember was the constant Jehovah this - Jehovah that. Thanks.

inquirer

Hi Littletoe.

Your question "What did Thomas believe?"

He believed that Jesus was God's son. He was a god, but not God Almighty. No trinity.... That is what Thomas believed.

A god, because a judge can be a one in a figurative sense, but... it doesn't mean anything unless you are God ALmighty! That's What I Am Saying... Can't get any more clear than that.

If you read the whole paragraph, it makes sense.

John 20:26-31 26 Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May YOU have peace.” 27 Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”

30 To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

Trinity- True or False

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