Trinity- True or False

by defd 215 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  JosephMalik

  Kenneson: Do you, therefore, believe in non-human heavenly messengers called angels?

  Yes. Kenneson: If you do, were they created and by whom? It is not known how such non-human beings came into existence. This is not discussed in scripture in detail. Creation may even be the wrong word to use to describe them. As to whom, they belong to. The answer is YHWH. Kenneson: Was it human messengers that appear in the Gospels at Mt. 1:20; JM: No. Mt. 2:13, JM: No. 19? JM: No. Kenneson: Who is the angel in Lk. 1:11 JM: Non-human and Gabriel in verse 26? JM: Non-human. And so it goes. But if you think that this establishes a pattern of such use or a defensable position think again. 14 And when she knew Peter’s voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. 15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.

  His angel they said, another human being, a messenger sent by Peter knocking on the door (compare to appearing on the inside). That is what they thought. This word, angel/messenger is a common Greek word that does not identify the nature of the individual itself. Again it is context that determines who or what is meant. It was also used by Jews as an endearing term for the prophets of old. Thus we have such extensive use of it in Hebrews. Kenneson: It seems to me that the belief in heavenly beings called angels runs through the entire Bible. As does such use of human beings especially in the world to come. Paul was foremost in using the word in that way.
  1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels ? how much more things that pertain to this life?
  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  Kenneson:
  Was John the Baptist human or non-human? Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. How is it that John is called my angel in this verse. Just because translators used messenger here does not alter this fact. All such examples must be taken into consideration if the use of this term is to be understood.
  Joseph
• 

  Kenneson

  Joseph,

  But why do we have to conclude that Acts 12:15 is referring to a human rather than a guardian angel? Was it not a popular belief of the time that guardian angels were a kind of spiritual "double" of their charges? See also Matt. 18:10.

  2 Pet. 2:4 and Jude 6 are both in agreement with 1 Cor. 6:3
• 

  JosephMalik

  Kenneson: But why do we have to conclude that Acts 12:15 is referring to a human rather than a guardian angel? Was it not a popular belief of the time that guardian angels were a kind of spiritual "double" of their charges?

  Why not? Do angels knock on doors or do they simply appear from nowhere? Your examples demonstrated the latter. Use of messenger for angellos demonstrates this as well. Kenneson: 2 Pet. 2:4 and Jude 6 are both in agreement with 1 Cor. 6:3 No they do not. 2 Peter 2:4 is talking about the Jews that died in the wilderness not non-human beings as you suggest. Paul also discussed them in his work. It is similar also in Jude. Notice: 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Such verses in Jude are discussing human beings. Both before verse 5 and after. While most were Jews not everyone in that wilderness was Jewish as a vast company of Egyptians went out with them. 38 “And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.” Such too were angels that kept not their first estate. Which first estate? Why the Egypt under discussion here of course. So this makes perfect sense as all those involved in this rebellion are discussed here in Jude. What is your point Kenneson? Do you have information to the contrary? If so please provide it in more detail.

  Joseph
• 

  inquirer

  LittleToe, Joseph. (particularly LT)
  
  
  
  
  
  I get sick of these debates because no one considers my side of the story.
  
  It's just ludicrous when I read it, you obviously haven't been listening to what I am saying.
  
  I did read your posts at least... I am not convinced by your arguments. I wish this thread wasn't posted.
  
  People concentrate on this John 1:1 thing too much and what it says in the Greek... And if this was an English essay and I said God was the word and God was God -- I would fail! Because it sounds really illiterate! :(
• 

  Cygnus

  Inquirer, I agree with you, as well as Jn 8:58 being rendered: "Before Abraham was, I am." Terrible grammar, and as you say, illiterate.

  BTW, how many angels do you think would fit on the head of a pin?
• 

  inquirer

  I am sure God can make Science Fiction a reality and shrink 100 tiny angels on a pin head! :D lol
  
  Didn't Jesus say if you want to move a mountain you can... as long as you have faith? :D
• 

  Kenneson

  Joseph,

  I certainly don't see those angels as humans, nor have I read any commentaries that agree with you. I, instead, take them to be the fallen angels of Gen. 6:1-4
• 

  JosephMalik

  Well Kenneson, that is not my problem. You can believe what is in such commentaries if you like.

  Joseph
• 

  Cygnus

  Heh. I dig your style, Joe. Always have, for the 8+ years I've known you.