Stem Cell Research article (page 4)

the_classicist

or is it that humans are "special"? and why would humans be special? because we have big brains and walk upright? it's funny that we're nothing more than hosts for DNA to survive via, and we think we are so bloody special.

So, you wouldn't mind if I murdered you, would you? I mean, you're nothing special and you're just a host for DNA. edited to read:

i hope that you have the same "respect" for the sanctity of life with regards bacteria. every time you wash your hands, you murder some of them. and you share a distant ancestor with them. how horrid! and i hope you have "respect" for where you walk on the sidewalk so as not to step on any ants, because after all, you share a common ancestor with them. you also share a common ancestor with the vegetables at the supermarket. do you support the inhumane killing of vegetables just because you need to eat? how selfish!

I almost forgot: that's a red herring. Great, now I feel like Paul Martin in a debate.

tetrapod.sapien

don't kill bacteria if don't want to.

well, actually, you don't have a choice. you have to kill other living things to survive. why would a loving god make a world like that? heartless and cruel to all organisms?

you may not care about bacterium but it still makes you (and i) a cold heartless MURDERER!

:)

TS

tetrapod.sapien

I almost forgot: that's a red herring.

it would only be considered a distraction to someone like you, who does not want to agree with the link between those organisms and us.

remember: WE'RE SPECIAL!!

So, you wouldn't mind if I murdered you, would you? I mean, you're nothing special and you're just a host for DNA.

of course i would mind. what a cruel murderous thing to say! i'm special, remember?!

the_classicist

well, actually, you don't have a choice. you have to kill other living things to survive. why would a loving god make a world like that? heartless and cruel to all organisms?
you may not care about bacterium but it still makes you (and i) a cold heartless MURDERER!

Really, if everyone feels like twisting my words to prove their own illogical, emotional arguments, I should clarify them. The point I was trying to make was that it does not matter what you are killing can feel pain or not, you are still killing it. Humans do not value the life of bacteria and they are quite ephemeral in comparison to us, but a human life is different, not only from the philosophical prospective, but from an evolutionary one.

the_classicist

of course i would mind. what a cruel murderous thing to say! i'm special, remember?!

Well, yes, you are special. You are a unique unit of humanity. Society protects your life for the greater benefit of the human race. Embryos are still a unique unit of humanity, not fully formed, but they have full potential and it is wrong to inhibit that for our own selfish gain.

EvilForce

I do not see the ethical stand you take. It's a moral judgement you make. An artificial parameter. It's one thing to sit in an ivory tower on your golden throne pontificating to the masses on the nobility of poverty. There are many cures, procedures, and treatments that were developed under "questionable" ethics. Again I challenge you that under duress you may just change your stance. While my statements are non-PC I assure you when it comes down to "brass tacks" you'd be surprised how you can see quite clearly past so-called ethical challenges.

the_classicist

I do not see the ethical stand you take. It's a moral judgement you make. An artificial parameter. It's one thing to sit in an ivory tower on your golden throne pontificating to the masses on the nobility of poverty. There are many cures, procedures, and treatments that were developed under "questionable" ethics. Again I challenge you that under duress you may just change your stance. While my statements are non-PC I assure you when it comes down to "brass tacks" you'd be surprised how you can see quite clearly past so-called ethical challenges.

I daresay that it's not an artificial judgement. An embryo has 48 chromosomes and is a human life that will grow into a fully-formed human being. Sperm is not a human life as there are only 14 chromosomes and it can't, by itself, turn into a fully-formed human being without an ovum.
It's one thing to sit in an ivory tower to pontificate from your golden throne about how it is morally acceptable to take another's life in order to benefit your own.
Yes, many cures, procedures, and treatments were developed under "questionable ethics," and we do not reject them. But, those indirectly caused the harm of others. Using embryonic stem cell is directly harming another's human life.
I think your statements are quite politically correct given our society's devaluation of human life.

tetrapod.sapien

Embryos are still a unique unit of humanity, not fully formed, but they have full potential and it is wrong to inhibit that for our own selfish gain.

well, i've provided the biological basis for my morality on the issue. now please do the same.

the problem i have religious people, is that their stand on abortion and stem cells are based on their religious views, which mean nothing biologically. so what i say is not a red herring. to say that we are special and different for religious reasons, is the same as asserting that we were created special.

you cannot prove the potential of a clump of cells. that is illogical.

EvilForce

Class....you are surely going to tell me you are either vegan or vegetarian are you not? Surely a higher form of life such as an octupus, cow, or pig shouldn't be sacrificed on the alter of the BBQ grill should it?

What about all those pesky embryos that don't attach properly to the uterine wall? Not viable eh? If it is life should it not be able to fend for itself somehow? You assign artificial values to when, how, where life begins.

I was not insulting you by calling you a man was I? I said it was funny how the most rabid anti-abortionist were men. How is that an insult? It was an observation. Quite an astute one I might add.

Are you swearing an oath to never, ever use a procedure or treatment that utilizes embryonic stem cell research? Can you make that vow?

the_classicist

well, i've provided the biological basis for my morality on the issue. ; now please do the same.

I did and I shall,

you cannot prove the potential of a clump of cells. ; that is illogical.

Yes, a simple clump of cells has no potential to become a human being, but an embryo does. That is the difference. It is certainly not self-sustaining as of yet, but neither are new born children, are they?

the problem i have religious people, is that their stand on abortion and stem cells are based on their religious views, which mean nothing biologically. ; so what i say is not a red herring. ; to say that we are special and different for religious reasons, is the same as asserting that we were created special.

I have provided a biological basis and if you look through the thread you'll see I've never argued from a religious stand point (strawman for you). You're arguing irrationally by not taking into consideration the philosophical implications of this entire matter. And, yes, tetrapod, philosophy and science are very compatible and one flows from the other.

Stem Cell Research article

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