Cross or a Stake - which was it?

by KAYTEE 120 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Narkissos

  Just a few comments on some of scholar's claims:

  The simple facts are that Jesus died on a stake because this is what the eyewitnesses saw, they saw a stauros which means a pole , stake or whatever. The testimong does not suggest a stake with a crossbeam or another piece of wood affixed to it, they did not see two or three or four pieces of wood but a simple, single piece of wood described by the word stauros. It is very, very simple.

  Obviously scholar has not read Leolaia's demonstration that stauros can mean both the patibulum (the stauros carried by Simon of Cyrene according to the synoptics and by Jesus according to John) and the complete instrument (the stauros to which Jesus' hands and feet were nailed).

  Also, Jesus could only have died in this mannner because under Jewish Law, criminals were hung on a stake or stauros so Jesus died according to Jewish custom but under Roman authority. Jesus's death had to fulfill Jewish Law completely.

  Killing somebody by hanging him on a cross -- or stake, for that matter -- was no established Jewish custom, and certainly no Jewish law. In spite of later Qumran interpretation, Deuteronomy 21:22f originally refers to hanging the corpse of a dead convict (previously killed by stoning which was the common penalty for blasphemy -- the charge which the high priests leveled at Jesus according to the Gospels).

  Moreover, John 18.29ff clearly implies that the kind of death Jesus was to suffer was the Roman one:

  So Pilate went out to them and said, "What accusation do you bring against this man?" They answered, "If this man were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you." Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves and judge him according to your law." The Jews replied, "We are not permitted to put anyone to death." (This was to fulfill what Jesus had said when he indicated the kind of death he was to die.)

  Besides these simple facts without engaging in the historical debate there is the problem that the cross is a pagan symbol and it would be a violation of the sacred for Jesus to be associated with a pagan thing. Jesus death was sacrificial and a sacred act of atonement and it could not violated by the introduction of something unclean and detestable.

  It has already been shown that a stake or pole is a much more common "pagan symbol" than the cross. Moreover, the point in Galatians 3:13 is precisely that Jesus' cross is a sign of divine curse:

  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

  This text quotes Deuteronomy 21:22f which uses the technical vocabulary of ceremonial uncleanness:

  When someone is convicted of a crime punishable by death and is executed, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse must not remain all night upon the tree; you shall bury him that same day, for anyone hung on a tree is under God's curse. You must not defile (Heb tm', to make ceremonially unclean) the land that the LORD your God is giving you for possession.
• 

  scholar

  Leolaia

  The simple fact of the matter is that the cover illustration of Hengel's book pictures the Lord on a tree like feature than any cross which according to your thesis was the more popular in the ancient world. Hengel bases his thesis on the assumption that Jesus died on a cross without any consideration of the lexical data which he no doubt felt was unnecessary. However, what comes across from his research in my view is the considerable emhasis he places on the fact of impalement which undermines your nonsense and supports the views of celebrated WT scholars.

  The simple lexical facts are that stauros means a stake, xulon means a stake and so does crux mean a stake. So, unless you wish to revise the published lexicon entries in all of the literature then you need to accept this basic fact.

  So, when the Jewish mob cried ot for Jesus execution what was their cry? It was not to crucify him because the Jewish mob did not speak Latin but as translated into the Greek it was to Impale Him. Impale does not refer to a cross but a pale or piece of wood.

  Again, Deut 21:22 clearly refers to a stake or tree not a cross and this text was referred to by Paul in Galatians where again the instrument was not a crosd but a tree or stake.

  Hengel sources the ancient writers well and in the beginnings of his discussion refers to the hero Prometheus who is also sourced by the illustrious NWT Committee. This fellow was not bound to a cross but was impaled to a stake. In fact, all that I have to do is refer to Loeb Classical Library series on each of the ancient sources. This collection has the original text in either Greek or Latin with the opposite page transalted into English. Now whenever I read the pertinent section where stauros as a noun or verbal form or crux as a noun or cruce as a verbal form is found, I immediately can mentally insert stake or impale as the appropriate meaning. So, I have no trouble reading those sources accordingly because tis is the meaning of those terms.

  Of course, I do not imply that such a two pieced instrument as a cross was not used in the ancient world but the evidence shows that impalement and stake was the norm and the evidence for Jesus is absolute, he died on a stake because he was impaled on a stake or tree.

  scholar JW
• 

  jgnat

  Yes, simple comes to mind, but there is nothing factual about Pseudo-Scholar's claims.

  Pseudo-Scholar, do you understand the simple concept of going to source for reliability? Do you understand the difference between fact and speculation?

  I am not talking about book-cover illustrations here.
• 

  scholar

  jgnat

  Listen you idiot, if you want facts then look up a Lexicon, a Latin Lexicon, a Greek Lexicon for starters and you will find what the Greek and Latin words mean. Before advancing a fancy theory that apostates do you must check the primary sources first.

  1. Find and establish the meaning of the key terms

  2. Survey and determine their use in the primary text and other associated texts.

  3. Research current literature on the subject

  Perhaps the above will help you

  scholar JW
• 

  Hellrider

  
  Scholar:

  jgnat
  

  Listen you idiot, if you want facts then look up a Lexicon, a Latin Lexicon, a Greek Lexicon for starters and you will find what the Greek and Latin words mean

  You have to be retarded. Not only are you resorting to name-calling, but you obviously can`t touch your keyboard without displaying shocking amounts of ignorance. Open up any greek-english dictionary, there`s even one on the net: http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

  ...and you will find this translation of stavros:

  stavros	=	a stake, the Cross

  ...your nick, "Scholar" just gets more and more retarded every time you post on this forum. This is the second time in only two posts you have resorted to name-calling. Now you called Jgnat an idiot, and in your previous post, you called Leolaia "you stupid woman". There`s only one stupid on this forum, and it`s you. I strongly suggest that you go and jump into Gehenna with an Awake impaled firmly up into your faithful and descret rectum.
• 

  stevenyc

  This is fun!

  steve
• 

  Leolaia

  This poseur and charlatan is so divorced from reality, there is no point in discussing things further with him. One can only point out the facts to him so many times before giving up. You can lead a horse to water, but cannot make him drink...

  The simple lexical facts are that stauros means a stake, xulon means a stake and so does crux mean a stake. So, unless you wish to revise the published lexicon entries in all of the literature then you need to accept this basic fact.

  You can repeat a lie how many times you want, but it doesn't make it the truth.

  Listen you idiot, if you want facts then look up a Lexicon, a Latin Lexicon, a Greek Lexicon for starters and you will find what the Greek and Latin words mean.

  We all know how the words are defined in these lexicons, you idiot. Apparently, you never read the part in Liddell & Scott under STAUROS that says "II. Cross, as the instrument of crucifixion ... its form was represented by the Greek letter T" (see the scan), or the part in Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon under STAUROS that says "a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position; a cross-piece was oft (Artem. 2, 53) attached to its upper part, so that it was shaped like a T or thus t", or the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament which defines STAUROS as "an instrument of torture for serious offences ... In shape we find three basic forms. The cross was a vertical, pointed stake (skolops --> 409, 4ff), or it consisted of an upright with a cross-beam above it (T, crux commissa), or it consisted of two intersecting beams of equal length (t, crux immissa)," etc. etc. Yeah, we all know what the lexicons say. But do you?

  Before advancing a fancy theory that apostates do you must check the primary sources first.

  1. Find and establish the meaning of the key terms

  2. Survey and determine their use in the primary text and other associated texts.

  3. Research current literature on the subject

  LOL! Yeah, as if we haven't been doing this all along.

  Please inform us when the WTS has ever done this.
• 

  stevenyc

  scholar: 3. Research current literature on the subject

  I assume you meant 3. Research current Watchtower literature on the subject

  steve

  ps, easy with the language mate. I'm sure it's frustrating for you battling away with a bunch of reasonably informed people, on subjects that are at the heart and foundation of your faith, but name calling is something to be left in the playground.
• 

  jgnat

  Now here's a "factual" source that Pseudo-Scholar should respect:

  However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·hen´na. Matthew 5:22 NWT
• 

  Hellrider

  He`s gone all silent now. No wonder. He probably realised that the "stepped right into it". What`s the english expression for that...ah...in norwegian, it`s "stepped in the salad". Anyway, that`s what he did, and he probably realised it too (if that`s possible, considering the level of arrogance and ignorance). I can tolerate stupid people, and I can tolerate arrogant people. But I can`t tolerate stupid, arrogant people.