two Bible & jw questions

by carla 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  carla

  First question is - Husband says that God will establish a kingdom ruled by Jesus (or should that be Michael?) THEN Jesus turns it back over to God. What? How's that?And what then becomes of Jesus? How the heck to they arrive at this? (doesn't 2Peter 1:11 say Jesus' kingdom is eternal?)

  Second question is- with so many references in the Bible to a NEW Earth & Heavens, (see 2Peter 3:10-13 for one example) why do they insist it is somehow going to be 'rebuilt' or cleaned up by jw's? Do they not understand the definition of 'new'?

  thanks for any input,

  carla
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  AlmostAtheist

  The thousand year thing comes from Revelation, it says that Christ would rule for a thousand years, with the 144,000. In 1 Cor 15:24, it says that Christ would hand the kingdom over to "his God and Father". After that, who knows? Maybe Jesus opens a chain of bed and breakfasts?

  On the New Earth: They believe this is symbolic. "Imagine if all men lived together in harmony, with no disease, no poverty, and no war. That would truly be a 'new earth', wouldn't it?" Yuck, I hate regurgitating that stuff, but I joyfully said it at the doors for years. The reasoning on it being symbolic is that the heavens themselves won't be destroyed and replaced, so logically the earth also will not be literally destroyed. They reference scriptures that talk about how God destroyed the earth in Noah's day, when it was actually the ungodly men (and ungodly squirrels, and ungodly platypuses) that were destroyed, not the earth itself.

  See? It all makes sense, it has "the ring of truth", as my study conductor always put it.

  Dave
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  JCanon

  The concept of "heaven and earth" was an idiomatic concept in the Jewish culture. That is the absolute order and harmony of the stars and planets and the consistency of the rotation of the earth became a concept of the 'order of things" synonymous with the "system of things." When something major changed, they considered it a "new heavens and earth." For instance, the song in the movie "The Wiz" is about a "Whole New World" when the wicked witch of the West was killed. So we have that concept two.

  But variations of that are also found in the Bible to refer to observable changes in world circumstances. For instance, after Satan is destroyed, which is major change in circumstances in both heaven and earth, it speaks of that "old system of things" or old heaven and earth as fleeing...."From before him the earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them." This is the end of the system of things that knew Satan's influence and everything connected with it. As well, the purpose of the 1000-year reign under Christ also ends. This phrase introduces a complete "new" venue now, that of JUDGMENT DAY. Judgment Day is a completely new set if circumstances where all will be judged and there will be mass resurrections, etc. A completely different world and focus than before. Likewise when Judgment day is over and done with, it is said at Revelation 21: "And I saw a new hean and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away...." This time the old heaven and earth was the system of things in operation to effect Judgment Day. Now the 8th Creative Day of 7000 years begins and God is making "all things new". Likewise at Matthew 24:35 when Jesus says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away" it is a reference to that world or current system of things that was prophesied to pass away but all that he said would come true.

  The end of the "world" or the system of things under gentile rule represented a major change for the Jews. Thus the "end of the system of things" in the context of what Jesus was speaking of was synonymuos with the end of the "appointed times of the nations" who would trample Jerusalem until an appointed time. The "gentile times" ended when the Jews officially ended their exile on November 20, 1947 when the UN ratified the Partition Amendment granting control over part of Palestine to the Jews as their own country. Thus the "end of the system of things" referred to in Matthew ended in 1947 and is not a reference to the world after Armgeddon, which of course, likewise willl end a "system of things" when Christ begins to rule.

  As noted, these are idiomatic concepts and not about the literal heavens and earth.

  JC
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  JCanon

  First question is - Husband says that God will establish a kingdom ruled by Jesus (or should that be Michael?) THEN Jesus turns it back over to God. What? How's that?And what then becomes of Jesus? How the heck to they arrive at this? (doesn't 2Peter 1:11 say Jesus' kingdom is eternal?)

  Christ turning everything back over to God is more in the sense that God's rule and the correct order of things were interrupted when Adam and Eve sinned along with Satan as part of his rebellion. 6000 years of Satanic influence and mankind's rule would transpire followed by a "rest" from Satan during Christ's millennial rule. But things are not quite right yet as Satan is again released to test mankind of that world and after he is destroyed, the Judgment Day and the judgment of all of mankind takes places along with the second resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous. But then after that is all done, and all the righteous have life and all the wicked are gone, the world and kingdom are in its right state again and Christ then returns it to God having accomplished his task regarding it. He presents to God as an ordered, obedient world, free from rebellion and Satan.

  But he remains king and god over the world and heaven as God as given it to him as a gift, everything in the universe and and in heaven. But there is a slight change since God can now come down to earth and "dwell with mankind" again. The world that is estranged from him now will be acceptable again. Christ and the 144,000 will serve as God's temple, so they remain kings and priests, and Christ's kingdom now is God's kingdom in every sense.

  You know, we think about all these people, a static world population and living forever might eventually get boring. But since everyone will be judged and approved for eternal life, it would be "safe" to take couples from this population and transplant them throughout the universe to begin whole new worlds. It does say that God will make "All things New" again and it will be the end of his rest of Creative activity of 49,000 years (7 x 7000=49,000). If so, this will not likely take place until after another 1000 years since the millennium following Judgment Day is a JUBILEE MILLENNIUM as far as 1000-year days go since the beginning of the Creative Week.

  It seems to me that God took various planets and "assembled" them into our solar system after chosing this spot. He could do the same elsewhere and then transplant volunteer couples to begin whole new worlds all other the universe that could take another 7000 years each to completely repopulate. The same rules will apply though, granting permission to go the trees of life will depend upon obedience, but there will be no repeat of the rebellion by Satan or a world of dying mankind since the origianl couples will begin already having eternal life. Each new world will have a perfect start. With the depopulation of this planet, likely some replenishment population will begin again perhaps.

  The anointed 144,000, who will be angels, will be able to travel to all these new worlds in the universe and help govern them. Who knows?

  Further, since a third of the angels rebelled at the time of Satan, maybe God will replenish the angelic population well, maybe choosing new angels from among mankind who wish to be angels?

  Lot of speculation but I think within reason by what we see today. Never a dull moment, for sure. God didn't grant eternal life for us to be bored. Instead the universe will be a beautiful and "high" as a field of poppies!!!

  JC
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  carla

  Somebody save me from JC.

  sorry JC, no offense, but I have found some of your theology even more confusing than the jw's. Have you combined jw theology with something or is it your own mixture?

  carla
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  Narkissos

  
  This is another example of the vast diversity of ideas and doctrines in the New Testament. Interestingly both the Pauline doctrine of "turning back the kingdom over to God" and that of the literal (pace JCanon) fiery destruction of the universe in 2 Peter show different influences from contemporary Stoic thought.

  The key Stoic concept is the ultimate unity of all things in the logos (or "God") from which all things come and to which they must eventually return. "Christ" or "the Son of God" in Pauline doctrine is not a mere man, not an autonomous heavenly creature either, but the divine redeemer character whose mission on earth is to reconcile the world with God into a new harmony (2 Corinthians 5:16ff, which links the notions of new creation and reconciliation, especially v. 19: "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself"). To Paul this is already being done. Once his mission is fulfilled the redeemer (which is actually little more than a functional mask of God) naturally fades out of the picture "so that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28 -- a typical Stoic formula).

  In 2 Peter (well into the 2nd century) "Jesus" and "God" function as almost interchangeable names (right from 1:1, "our God and Savior Jesus Christ") so the "kingdom of Jesus" and "the kingdom of God" are practically synonymous. But the irreconciled "world" is still there, long after the apostolic generation is gone (this is the big problem in chapter 3). The trick now is to oppose the permanent divine order to the unpermanent world which is bound to disappear eventually (but not necessarily soon: "to the Lord a day is like a thousand years"). Whence the appeal to another Stoic idea, the cyclical fiery conflagration (ekpurosis) of the universe of diversity and conflict with its struggling elements (stoikheia). (Leolaia has provided some interesting links about this in another thread.)

  Edit: I've still not found Leolaia's thread but here is an interesting online article about Stoicism: http://www.geocities.com/stoicvoice/journal/0200/pr0200a1.htm
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  Leolaia

  Here ya go:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/76750/1.ashx
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  AK - Jeff

  sorry JC, no offense, but I have found some of your theology even more confusing than the jw's. Have you combined jw theology with something or is it your own mixture?

  You pretty much hit the nail on the head. JC is a certified nut-case/prophet. Still a witness apologist it seems at times while inverting/converting/and futher convuluting prophecy to meet his own twisted ideas. Best to ignore anything coming out of that confused human being.

  Jeff
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  nicolaou

  Try another point of view;

  There is no god.

  Jesus was just a man - a kind and loving man with some wise advice, but just a man nonetheless.

  The Bible is a book of human origin.

  Life is simple.
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  Shining One

  >Jesus was just a man - a kind and loving man with some wise advice, but just a man nonetheless.
  
  That doesn't wash and you know it. At least be honest. If you are going to 'hedge your bet', try the evidence in favor of Christ as He claimed to be: God the son. If He was 'just a kind and loving man with wise advice', you have to ignore the majority of His ministry and statements.
  Rex