Questions for Jgnat

by Shining One 151 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry



    When you begin building an argument on your own presuppositions you will always arrive at the answers you seek.



    Shining One has never examined the bedrock.



    He has assumed it is bedrock and proceeds on that assumption.



    For many many years I made exactly the same assertions about scripture. I always assumed that "scholarship" had established this and that for which I could be confident and not have to do any dirty work myself.



    This is the heart of mysticism! The difference between a reasonable and rational mind and a plunge into mysticism is at the crossroads between "I KNOW" and "THEY SAY".



    Shining One is on the road of "They Say" with "they" being "scholars".



    Well, a scholar is as a scholar does.



    There are all kinds of professions in this world peopled by all sorts of competency levels. There are doctors who leave sponges and operating tools sewn up inside patients. There are auto mechanics who gyp you. There are professors who can't teach and ballplayers who swing and miss repeatedly.



    You see, Shining One, you can't lump ALL SCHOLARS into an amorphous category called "SCHOLARSHIP" and think your argument is settled. It isn't intellectually honest. That is like eating an apple with a worm in it. You have not yet searched for the worm and removed it from your arguments.



    There are all sorts of scholars with all manner of agenda. If you cherry pick your scholars you get one conclusion and if you go another direction....well, you get my drift.



    I would urge you to do what I finally had to knuckle down and do for myself; examine a wide range of writing on the subject of how the bible came to exist in the form we have it today.



    That entails at least three things.



    1.Read what sort of "documents" exist from which interpretations have been extracted. Conversely, read about what sort of documents were rejected and who did the rejecting of them. Why were the __other__writings not only rejected, but, destroyed?



    2.Read who the men were who were the historians of the church and what their agenda consisted of. Give Eusebius, for example, a really close reading and see what sort of person you are dealing with. What was his evaluation of Constantine, his opponents, the operations of the Catholic Church, etc.



    3.Look very closely at the thousands and thousands of proved instances of fraud in copying, rewriting and interpreting scripture. Ask yourself "why" men of spiritual commitment found it necessary (in their mind) to drastically change something or add something to what they had dedicated their life to defending and preserving. What sort of mentality was at work?



    It takes some soul searching work to do what I suggest here. You have to begin with the premise that you will let the chips fall where they may. You have to be willing to be wrong if that is where the evidence takes you.



    When the Watchtower's own Freddy Franz began the New World Translation do you suppose he ever announced to anybody (or even himself) "There are some dishonest changes I will be making for the wonderful purpose of supporting my own religious views!" ??



    No. Pious fraud exists in otherwise honest and spiritually mature men for a pretty good reason. They cannot give up their illusory view of what scripture is SUPPOSED to be. They will damage the actual document anytime they feel it necessary if it means preserving their own point of view. It is a kind of metaphorical abortion where the mother is willing to destroy the life of her child for the sake of her own health. It is a terrible sort of self-justification decided on no whim, but, after heart-rending soul-searching. It is a tragic and pathetic trade-off. The more righteous the believer; the more powerful becomes their desire to force their orthodoxy on others---even if it takes a resort to larceny with documents.



    The Watchtower, near and dear to each of us here, is a crystal clear example of this sort of scholarly license. When quoting secular experts on any important matter of discussion (evolution, dates, exegesis, etc.) they are not above selective quoting and selective omission of true contexts and actual wording if it serves their purposes.



    All through history (BEGINNING WITH THE ORIGINAL ATTEMPTS AT CANONICITY) men have worked their zeal into selective personal and selfish manipulation of any document purporting to represent the actual viewpoint or words of God.



    It is an inescapable fact.



    If there is one thing above all else Shining One will have to do it is to drop his emotional addiction to the unsupportable illusion that the Bible is anything other than a manmade manipulation of sundry source material that has been sifted, cut and pasted and resorted through a long stretch of time.



    Consequently, the so-called "scholarship" pertaining to this damaged hearsay is irrelevent as to content representing God's mind on things.



    It is a dead end.



    I invite Shining One to take a moment to represent here and now a brief explanation of how HE THINKS the production of the Bible escaped damage other than taking the amorphous dodge of mystical dismissal "God wouldn't let His Word be destroyed".



    God has been all too lax in allowing anyone and anything representing him be utterly ruined at any time. He didn't spare the "people for his name" from the Holacaust nor His son from crucifixtion. Why would he be more fastidious with old manuscripts found rotting in jars or buried in desolate wasteheaps?



    What you see when you hold a bible (any bible) in your hand is largely the result of the Catholic Church early on. And even that has been run through the ringer of Protestant maniacs and shredded of intent.



    The least understandable book on the face of the earth is the Bible because of this constant process of damage over a long long course of historical tug-of-war by ideologues, fanatics and politicians eager for power.



    Prove me wrong!



    Terry

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Terry,
    You are hijacking the thread. I am asking Jgnat some very specific questions. You assume that I have to answer your assertions to continue my argument. What you said at the beginning of your own message applies to you as well:

    "When you begin building an argument on your own presuppositions you will always arrive at the answers you seek."

    Your own belief system was eroded and comprised by facts that you learned thorugh various means of research. I believe that you (and many who are on here) kept the axiom that "all Churches are false", that was drilled into you by the WBTS. I'm not just 'blowing off' your well thought out post. I have looked at the same issues in the past and settled them to my satisfaction. I have also sifted the evidence that only one who has a personal relationship with the risen Lord can know. Yes, I know that is entirely subjective to you and many others here. I can do nothing that would convince you in any way, shape or form.

    Jgnat is evasive and clueless. Her future 'debate' with agnostics/atheists will be strictly 'claimed believer' versus non-believer. It would be much along the lines of a 'Bishop Spong vs Barry Lynn', (ACLU pres and Unitarian). It will be interesting but won't accomplish much.
    Rex

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Jgnat,

    Dfed has you pegged:
    >Shining one you will find that they do that a lot. ..especially Jgnat. Talking with her is like dancing ballerina style....you keep going round and round and round.................
    You are either clueless or delusional. Those who see reason (and admit it), can see that your faith is built on the 'shifting sands' of relativism. When you used the word, 'inclusive' that just confirmed that you are a 'salt water' Christian with one notable addition: you are not just 'lukewarm', you attempt to teach a false Christ and that makes you a danger to anyone truly seeking after salvation.

    Please tell us of what denomination you are and if they teach the same things you spout here. Let me guess, Anglican? Maybe you are a renegade Catholic? Or maybe one of those U.C.C who claim to be so 'inclusive'? I am sure you will have the 'last word' so go ahead. I don't feel like wasting my time playing verbal 'ping pong'.
    Rex

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Here is an initial link for you Terry, I will try to find time later on to get more detail for you.

    http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTARO12.htm

    Rex

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    HI Terry,

    Here is a partial quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    3. The formation of the Tetramorph, or Fourfold Gospel

    Irenæus, in his work "Against Heresies" (A.D. 182-88), testifies to the existence of a Tetramorph, or Quadriform Gospel, given by the Word and unified by one Spirit; to repudiate this Gospel or any part of it, as did the Alogi and Marcionites, was to sin against revelation and the Spirit of God. The saintly Doctor of Lyons explicitly states the names of the four Elements of this Gospel, and repeatedly cites all the Evangelists in a manner parallel to his citations from the Old Testament. From the testimony of St. Irenæus alone there can be no reasonable doubt that the Canon of the Gospel was inalterably fixed in the Catholic Church by the last quarter of the second century. Proofs might be multiplied that our canonical Gospels were then universally recognized in the Church, to the exclusion of any pretended Evangels. The magisterial statement of Irenæus may be corroborated by the very ancient catalogue known as the Muratorian Canon, and St. Hippolytus, representing Roman tradition; by Tertullian in Africa, by Clement in Alexandria; the works of the Gnostic Valentinus, and the Syrian Tatian's Diatessaron, a blending together of the Evangelists' writings, presuppose the authority enjoyed by the fourfold Gospel towards the middle of the second century. To this period or a little earlier belongs the pseduo-Clementine epistle in which we find, for the first time after II Peter, iii, 16, the word Scripture applied to a New Testament book. But it is needless in the present article to array the full force of these and other witnesses, since even rationalistic scholars like Harnack admit the canonicity of the quadriform Gospel between the years 140-175.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

    I wanted to at least partially answer since the sacred Canon could be an issue, but I am basically done with Jgnat. There is little to be gained by playing verbal 'ping pong' with her. This article goes into much detail and is a readily available resource. I have never seen any argument that leads me to dismiss the canon as 'uninspired and arbitrary'. I believe that on the basis of the evidence we have the actual inspired Word of God. I believe that we continue to gain valuable insight as research is done but there is no further revelation of divine truth. I have seen the results of prayer, the miracles of healing and salvation and have no doubt that the Lord is 'walking with' me daily.
    St. Augustine said this, "Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand."
    Rex

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Descent to ad-hominem. I won't bother responding to that. I think my arguments are sound and hold under scrutiny. You play fast and loose with language, OSO.

    *sigh*. Very well. I'll give up my denomination. I am a member of the Christian Missionary Alliance in Canada. I have also attended the Church of the Nazarene, Canada, and I spent twenty years with an independent evangelical church. This church welcomed a local WWCG congregation to share their facility when the WWCG fell on hard times. See? Your prediction was way off base. How I despise labels.

    Books that deeply affected my thinking about Christianity include Bruchko by Bruce Olson and Becoming Human by Jean Vanier.

    When someone expresses an interest in Christianity, I refer them to the Alpha Program, which many different kinds of churches support.

    Now, what's yours?

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I think Terry summed up my argument quite well. At least he can read diagrams.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    I have also sifted the evidence that only one who has a personal relationship with the risen Lord can know.

    What is the point of apologetics then?

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/82598/1.ashx

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Thanks for resurrecting that thread, Narkissos. It covers the issues very well. I forgot that I responded to it. I re-read AlanF's comments, and I do heartily agree that a Christian who starts out with a "rational" explanation for Christianity and then retreats to "faith" when cornered is intellectually dishonest.

  • Quentin
    Quentin

    Jgnat

    You( and others )have done well expressing the faith of your heart. In the end that's all that matters. I like what Thomas Payne said the gist of which is: I believe in one God and one God only, no other...When I die God will do with me what he wills...Too bad some cannot see the simplicty of God. I suppose if they did not live a convuluded life they would have no life at all.

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