WTBTS Innocent in Swaggart Case? (page 2)

Room 215

Troubled,
I think you're missing the point on this one. Legal semantics aside, there's no question that in the public's mind -- and especially in the minds of loyal JWs -- the Society decided that the risk of an appearance of being tainted by an alliance with Swaggart was worth it when it came time to defend their revenue stream from taxation.
Let's not forget that these are the same people that go to such lengths as to refuse to have their Kingdom Hall addresses appear in local newspapers and Yellow Pages under ``Religious Services'' and who've nailed people to the wall for such trivialities as swimming in a YMCA pool, who cut the lawns of churches as part of their job for landscapers, or who monitor the securty equipment of churches.

AlanF

Nice explanation, Seeker!

Something about the donation arrangement is not so well known: After the Society realized that contributions dropped off precipitously, they not only issued that KM you referred to, but began actually billing congregations for literature at exactly the rate that existed before the donation arrangment went into effect. They actually put teeth into the demand for payment by telling elders that no more literature would be sent until the congregation payed up. Elders were then forced to lie to the rank & file by asking them for a 'special contribution' to the Society, but they never informed the publishers that it was to make up for the shortfall. So today the Society ensures that it gets paid for literature by issuing bills for literature, but pretends to non-elders that all literature costs are covered by voluntary donations. Donations by outsiders are certainly voluntary, but when a threat is made that more literature won't be sent until the congregation pays up, that's not voluntary.

AlanF

Seeker

Excellent point, Alan. I forgot about that new wrinkle. So now the Society, only in the ideal world, gets paid 3 times:

1. When they charge the congregation for the literature
2. When the publisher contributes after picking it up
3. When the householder accepts the literature and donates

And although I was serious about many publishers feeling uncomfortable about asking for money, many do ask, and many householders actually give more money now than they used to under the old arragement. When you don't specify an amount, how many householders would, on their own, think to contribute .50? The most typical donation was a dollar. Five dollars wasn't rare. Even occasionally a $20 contribution would appear. That makes up for a whole bunch of folks who don't give a dime.

Yet despite the potential for a windfall under this new double-donation arrangement (publisher donates, and then the householder also donates), the Society still found themselves with less money. Makes you wonder just how many publishers decided to grab free literature! No wonder the Society started charging congregations "off the books", so to speak. Given a chance, the friends took advantage of the Society big time. By their fruits you shall know them, indeed!

bboyneko

who cut the lawns of churches as part of their job for landscapers

My friend Richard, he left the JW's with me when we were both 18. (Another reason I support DA'ing yourself, you make a bold statement and others may leave with you)

Anyway, he mows lawns now and they would not allow him to mow the lawn of the kingdom hall. What would be the reasoning for this??? Will he taint the JW grass, maybe plant literal 'seeds of doubt' in the lawn??

-Dan

Skeptic

p.s. Just trying to get the facts straight and not jump to conclusions prematurely.

Keep doing that, troubled...keep gathering facts pro and con about the JW faith. Get the facts straight, then reach your own conclusions.

In Canada, we were told that the donation arrangement was being brought in because the governments were gearing up to persecute religions, a sign we were deep into the time of the end. We were to stop charging for literature to let the governments know that we are no part of Christendom, and that our work is educational, not a business. It was felt that this would delay persecution of Jah's people a little longer.

This makes the WTBS filing for the Swaggart case gross hyprocisy to me.

I would not care if they switched to the donation arrangement to save taxes. Just don't lie about it. (Don't they say that if a religion teaches one lie you should leave it?) Say it "ensures all the donations from our hard-working brothers and sisters goes to the preaching work and not to worldly governments"...

Their hyprocrisy is even worse when you consider that a JW cannot join the YMCA because that is supporting Christendom. I could not buy a used military truck for $1 because that "$1 would be supporting the military". When they split hairs that fine for the R&F, they could at least be as tough on themselves. But we don't see that.

Richard

Had Enough

Naeblis says:

If they've been dishonest in this way how can they have credibility when it comes to life and death matters?

The WTS is losing its credibility left and right with the info that's being blasted all over the internet. Just look at the threads here in the last month or so on exposing the WTS in their deceit of misquoting statements made by medical and historical authorities in their publications on blood.

You also say:

What stops them from lying then?

Nothing stops them...misquoting and making misleading references is lying.

As more and more people are becoming aware of that fact, the less credibility the WTS is having, maybe even until there is none left.

I've only just started searching things out about the WTS in the last 4-5 months after decades of believing every word they uttered. I've only just scratched the surface of all the info already exposed and there's more to come I'm sure.

troubled:
Whether the WTS makes an outright blatant lie, or infers something that isn't, or omits the facts ("withheld full information")which will lead a person to think the opposite of the truth....they are all "lies"...and that makes the WTS a "false religion".

Someone's signature quotation here (I think its ros) quotes the WTS when it said something about any religion that lies is a false religion. So what does that say about the WTS itself?

MadApostate

AlanF:

I really need that ten grand by the way.

Until then, if you can back up (as in hard copy documents) the allegations you make above that:

1. The WTS invoices Mag & Lit shipments, including monetary amounts.

2. The WTS states that Mags & Lit will be withheld unless the Cong's account is "kept current."

THEN such documents should be forwarded to California's (and other states) Revenue/Taxation agencies for review. If the above situations can be documented, then it is my opinion that a State would rule that "sales" are occurring regardless of the disguises that are being used.

Tax law is different from other branches of the law which often ride on interpretation. Tax law is more black and white, and less likely to allow people to get away with "technicalities". Remember who nailed Al Capone's ass, when no one else could. If one State could be convinced to go after the WTS, and they succeed, the rest of the states would follow suit.

DO YOU HAVE THE EVIDENCE?

Billygoat

Seeker,

Thanks for the great explanation! I do kind of remember not having to worry about the money issue anymore before I was DFed. But I did think the society changed it because of "educational purposes", to set us apart from other churches. I had no idea, until today, that Jimmy Swaggart was the catalyst for this decision.

Veddy eentaristing!

Billygoat

mustang

Yes, troubled,

your 'take' on the law is essentially correct. As another pointed out, many a curious turn of affairs is done for legal necessity. That is understandable, and easily forgiven or accepted if properly addressed and dealt with by explanation. The sin of omission was mentioned and there you have it.

Not only did WTS 'sleep with the enemy' (in the views of some), but they did the sin of omission by not telling the true and in-depth reasons. They furthered the hypocrisy by capitalizing on it with the hype about the new 'donation arrangement'.

The next chapter of the hypocrisy is that the WTS continued its doctrine on Interfaith and continued to denounce any 'consorting with the enemy'. While entering the Swaggart case for this reason was a debatable case of Interfaith, they chose the devious path, instead of coming clean. In the meantime, Brother Joe Dub gets disciplined for mowing that Church lawn.

Call it the 'sin of omission, if you will, but it is still the living of a lie.

You see, troubled, somewhere between 'half past Russell' and 'half-past Rutherford', the WTS made some real tall statements. Frankly, those statements are proving to be an order that is too tall to fill. Unfortunately, the GB got into the habit of continuing this practice. They further perpetuated these errors by throwing humility out the window. Instead of taking the proper route and acknowledging some indiscretions, the GB took the prideful way out and sticks these doubtful policies out, to the bitter end.

'Pride goeth before a fall'. Tumble, tumble.

Mustang

friendorfoe

Here is another point to, alot of householders would in pre donation time would give more then what was asked to cover printing costs so the publishers would have a little to go toward their expenses such as gas or price of insurance but now the WT&BTS found a way to get their hands on it to.

WTBTS Innocent in Swaggart Case?

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