by VM44 349 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Jeffro
Nothing that I or that of celebrated WT scholars has been refuted on this forum or any other board. You are dreaming if you believe that your interpretation of the seventy years is correct because no- one can agree as to its definite beginning or end and can factor in the length of the desolation of the land.
scholar JW
Nothing that I or that of celebrated WT scholars has been refuted on this forum or any other board. You are dreaming if you believe that your interpretation of the seventy years is correct because no- one can agree as to its definite beginning or end and can factor in the length of the desolation of the land.
Many scholars agree that it ended, as the bible indicates, at Babylon's fall in 539. And I could dogmatically apply the same rule as the Society and add exactly 70 years and arrive at an exact date for the beginning as well - and just like the Society's method, I wouldn't actually need any proof whatsoever that anything actually happened at that starting point anyway, even though history bares out that it did. You say that I am wrong because not all agree. NO secular sources at all agree with the Society. How could the Society therefore possibly be right.
If I was dreaming, you wouldn't be here.
Jeffro
No, some scholars argue that the seventy years ended in 539 but many others have at least half a dozen different interpretations of the seventy years each with different beginning and end points and that is by no an exhaustive field. So you sinply have one interpretation of the matter and celebrated WT scholars have also an interpretaion.
To say as you do that no secular sources agree with the Society is simply ignorance on your part because Josephus supports our view that there were seventy years of desolation. But what is more important is not whether other authorities accept our view but whether it is biblically based and the facts reveal that our chronology and interpretation is alone faithful to the divine Word.
scholar JW
No, some scholars argue that the seventy years ended in 539 but many others have at least half a dozen different interpretations of the seventy years each with different beginning and end points and that is by no an exhaustive field. So you sinply have one interpretation of the matter and celebrated WT scholars have also an interpretaion.
The Society's interpretation is just one more interpretation, and the difference with it is it isn't actually backed by any evidence; and it contradicts the source it claims to solely rely on. My interpretation fits the facts. Yours does not.
To say as you do that no secular sources agree with the Society is simply ignorance on your part because Josephus supports our view that there were seventy years of desolation. But what is more important is not whether other authorities accept our view but whether it is biblically based and the facts reveal that our chronology and interpretation is alone faithful to the divine Word.
According to Josephus, "Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years". So... you can either say that Josephus is inconsistent, in which case he adds no support to the Society; or you can say that his other references to 70 years did not refer to complete depopulation, in which case he adds no support to the Society. When all of the relevent verses are considered together, and the actual words of the verses are taken into account, the facts show that the Society is wrong.
Jeffro
You need to read all of the references by Josephus regarding the seventy years wherein he emphatically refers to the land lying desolate- the exile to Babylon- and serving Babylon until their release by Cyrus, His accounts fully support the interpretation of the subject made by celebrated WT scholars and is even acknowledged by the Jonsson hypothesis.
Josephus comments about the fifty years are in connection to the temple alone and not to the city or the land. Further, his comment is more of a problem for those who base their chronology on the Babylonian king lists because Josephus does not support this presentation of the matter.
scholar JW
You need to read all of the references by Josephus regarding the seventy years wherein he emphatically refers to the land lying desolate- the exile to Babylon- and serving Babylon until their release by Cyrus, His accounts fully support the interpretation of the subject made by celebrated WT scholars and is even acknowledged by the Jonsson hypothesis.
I have read them. He said that "all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years", though desertification does not mean it was uninhabited. He also said that "our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus." He didn't say that it was desolate for seventy years, but that it was desolute during the seventy years. If I go to the beach during the day, it does not necessarily mean that I went for the entire day, but only that it was daytime when I was there.
Josephus comments about the fifty years are in connection to the temple alone and not to the city or the land. Further, his comment is more of a problem for those who base their chronology on the Babylonian king lists because Josephus does not support this presentation of the matter.
LOL. This is too easy... Okay then, for which fifty years? Josephus said that "Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years." You believe this to be 607, so you're saying that the temple was no longer in "that state of obscurity" from 557BC (despite the fact that Josephus goes on to say that the temple remained in such a state until "the second year of the reign of Cyrus" when "its foundations were laid"). That is interesting. Apparently Jerusalem was still completely uninhabited, but somehow the temple was no longer desolated, even though it had to wait another 20 years before anyone started to rebuild it... And so we come back to the problem of the 20-year gap.
Or will you fall back to the argument that Josephus is inconsistent and therefore unreliable, in which case you can't use Josephus to back up the Society's interpretations anyway.
Jeffro
Josephus plainly states in at least 6 references that Judah, Jerusalem were desolate for seventy yeras and his presentation of the matter agrees with WT chronology. The fift year text is disputed by scholars and is a problem for advocates of secular chronology as shown by the discussion on the Chronology of Josephus in one of the Dissertations.
scholar JW
Scholar, can I see those references to Josepheus?
ackack
'Scholar',
Josephus plainly states in at least 6 references that Judah, Jerusalem were desolate for seventy yeras and his presentation of the matter agrees with WT chronology. The fift year text is disputed by scholars and is a problem for advocates of secular chronology as shown by the discussion on the Chronology of Josephus in one of the Dissertations.
I didn't ask you whether real scholars dispute the fifty years. You said the fifty years are specific to the temple. I showed that your statement was untenable, and asked whether you would fall back to the argument that Josephus is unreliable.
All of Josephus' quotes about the seventy years are below. Some do suggest 70 years of actual exile, but do not necessitate it, and overall, Josephus is in agreement that the temple was only desolate for 50, not 70, years. Also, it is illogical to only count the Exile from Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year as exiles were taken prior to that, in his accession year (Daniel) and his 9th year, (and some were only captives from Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year). So if the Society was right, Josephus would have said that they were in captivity for at least an extra 11 years, even if the time of Daniel's exile was ignored.
Antiquities, Book X, Chapter 7 (partially requoted in Against Apion Book I):
the king of Babylon would renew the war against Jerusalem, and besiege it again, and would destroy the people by famine, and carry away those that remained into captivity, and would take away what they had as spoils, and would carry off those riches that were in the temple; nay, that, besides this, he would burn it, and utterly overthrow the city, and that they should serve him and his posterity seventy years; that then the Persians and the Medes should put an end to their servitude, and overthrow the Babylonians;
No mention of exile, only serving for seventy years, ended by the overthrow of Babylon by the Medo-Persians: 539BC. This seventy years runs from 609 to 539.
Antiquities, Book X, Chapter 9:
the king of Babylon, who brought out the two tribes, placed no other nation in their country, by which means all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years;
Desertification does not mean depopulation. (It probably took another 20 years to get the land back properly under control after their return from Babylon anyway.) Obviously the temple was not also a literal desert, so it makes sense that Josephus means that the place was in a poor state. This seventy years fits with the seventy years of Zechariah from 587 to 517.
Antiquities, Book X, Chapter 9:
according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.
No mention of when the seventy years started, only that before the city was destroyed, Jeremiah said they would serve Babylon for 70 years. Some time after the 70 years, they would return to their land. This seventy years refers to 609 to 539.
Antiquities, Book XX, Chapter 10:
But after the term of seventy years' captivity under the Babylonians, Cyrus, king of Persia, sent the Jews from Babylon to their own land again, and gave them leave to rebuild their temple;
Some captives, such as Daniel and his companions were indeed captives in Babylon for about 70 years. Josephus says Cyrus sent them back after the end of 70 years, not at the end of 70 years. This period refers to 609 to 539.
Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chapter 9:
You are also acquainted with the slavery we were under at Babylon, where the people were captives for seventy years;
They were indeed in servitude to Babylon during Babylon's seventy years. This period refers to 609 to 539.
Against Apion, Book 1:
These accounts agree with the true histories in our books; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years;Unless the temple undesolated itself in 557BC, the Society is wrong.
Jeffro
Ant.10:7
Josephus affirms that the period of servitude was seventy years and that same servitude ended only not in 539 with the Fall of Babylon but rather when the Persians and the Medes ended their serrvitude in 537. This confirms interpretation of celebrated WT scholars.
Ant. 10:9
Josephus affirms that the land was uninhabited as a desert for seventy years also without the introduction of any other nation. A desert is a good description of Jeremiah's prophecies concerning the state of the land as a desolation. This confirms the interpretation of celebrated WT scholars.
Ant. 10:9
This reference is incorrect but the quote clearly shows that the period of servitude would be of seventy years and after that the Jews would return home which happened in 537. Again this observation supports the interpretation of celebrated WT scholars.
Ant.20:10
This confirms the view that the Jewish exiles after seventy years had ended, Cyrus sent them back home to their homeland in 537 BCE. Once again confirming the interpretaion of celebrated WT scholars.
Wars 5:9
Again Josephus testifies to the fact that the Jews were enslaved at Babylon for seventy years until the release by Cyrus in 537 BCE. Confirmed by celebrated WT scholars.
Against Apion 1:19
Josephus attests that Jerusalem was desolate for seventy years until the days of Cyrus which must be from 607 until 537 again confirmed by the celebrated.
Against Apion 1:21
Herein Josephus refers to the temple being desolate and was ina state of obscurity for fifty years.
Most scholars say that this is a scribal error and that the text must have read seventy instead of fifty in view of the fact that Josephus everywhere attests a period of seventy years only. Or that period of obscurity of fifty years may refer to a later period because of succeeding references to the temple after Cyrus and Darius.
It is plain from nearly all of Josephus'; refererences to the seventy years it is singularly used to descrfibe a period of exile, servitude and desolation in accordance with the Bible and the interpretation of celebrfated WT scholars from 607 to 537. Josephus does indeed provide overwhelming secular evidence for our sacred biblical chronology.
scholar JW
