Just finished talking with our daughter. Told her about the "kings list" from the WT literature you just posted. She has been having quite a discussion with her in-laws. Her father-in-law said he will give her the needed information regarding 607, as he has "connections". We'll see if he does any research. If you look in the current book study book, Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy, page 46, it says, "In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign as world ruler (606/605 B.C.E.), God sent him a terrifying dream." This is in contradiction to page 64 that says, "In the fourth year of his reign (620 B.C.E.), Nebuchadnezzar made Judah his vassal kingdom." Which one is right? I think this would be a good question to ask any JW, since they are studying this book right now. If 606/605 is right, you have the nearly 20 missing years.
Watchtower Gives Up Explaining 607 BCE Date!
by VM44 239 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jeffro
Little Bo Peep:
If you look in the current book study book, Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy, page 46, it says, "In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign as world ruler (606/605 B.C.E.), God sent him a terrifying dream." This is in contradiction to page 64 that says, "In the fourth year of his reign (620 B.C.E.), Nebuchadnezzar made Judah his vassal kingdom." Which one is right? I think this would be a good question to ask any JW, since they are studying this book right now. If 606/605 is right, you have the nearly 20 missing years.
It does look like an error, and it is indeed wrong in view of the facts; but it is not a contradiction insofar as JW dogma goes. They hold the groundless belief that Nebuchadnezzar became "world ruler" only after he destroyed Jerusalem.
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eyeslice
I think the general premise that WTBTS has given up trying to explain 'deep spiritual' things is correct.
They now say things like 'as Bible chronology proves' without offering any proof. One of the last meetings I attended over two years ago now was the special talk about the fall of Babylon the Great. It was so vague, no mention of the UN, no attempt to prove dates.
WTBTS theology is now presented as a given - no proof is necessary in their eyes.
Eyeslice -
Sam the Man
[b]WT scholars[/b]
Name one.
[b]The claculation of 607 is based on biblical and secular evidence[/b]
Secular evidence points to the year 586.
[b]a loyalty to God's inspired Word[/b]
So inspired that....
Ezekiel predicted Babylon would conquer Egypt and was wrong.
Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering it's people, and that it will stay uninhabited for 40 years.
In 568 BCE Nebuchadrezzar tried to conquer Egypt and Egypt survived with no apparent damage.
Aahmes ruled for another generation over a prosperous Egypt and lived to see Nebuchadrezzar die. No Egyptians were scattered or dispersed.
(Ezek 29:10 NRSV) therefore, I am against you, and against your channels, and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia.
(Ezek 29:11 NRSV) No human foot shall pass through it, and no animal foot shall pass through it; it shall be uninhabited forty years.
(Ezek 29:12 NRSV) I will make the land of Egypt a desolation among desolated countries; and her cities shall be a desolation forty years among cities that are laid waste. I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them among the countries.
(Ezek 30:10 NRSV) Thus says the Lord GOD: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt, by the hand of King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon.
(Ezek 30:11 NRSV) He and his people with him, the most terrible of the nations, shall be brought in to destroy the land; and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.
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Ezekiel predicts the destruction of Tyre (Tyrus) by Nebuchadrezzar and is wrong again.
Ezekiel incorrectly predicts that the island of Tyre (Tyrus) will be utterly destroyed and "made a bare rock" which will "never be rebuilt".
At the time of the prediction, it seemed like to be a sure thing, but 13 years of seige later Nebuchadrezzar gives up. The Island of Tyre is not destroyed or even conquered. It is not made "a bare rock" that will "never be rebuilt".
Ezekiel admits his error in Ezek 29:17
(Here the conquest of Trye looks like a sure thing so Ezekiel makes his prediction)
(Ezek 26:1 NRSV) In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
(Ezek 26:7 NRSV) For thus says the Lord GOD: I will bring against Tyre from the north King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon, king of kings, together with horses, chariots, cavalry, and a great and powerful army.
(Ezek 26:14 NRSV) I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets. You shall never again be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, says the Lord GOD.
(Ezek 27:32 NRSV) In their wailing they raise a lamentation for you, and lament over you: "Who was ever destroyed like Tyre in the midst of the sea?
(13 years of futile effort by Nebuchadrezzar later...)
(Ezek 29:17 NRSV) In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
(Ezek 29:18 NRSV) Mortal, King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had expended against it.
(So he then predicts that God decides to give Egypt to him instead, another Ezekiel prophecy that completely failed)
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Micah predicts the destruction of Jerusalem (which at the time was about to be invaded by Sennacherib and seemed inevitable) blaming the destruction on the corruption of the priesthood of Judah.
Jerusalem was sieged, but the destruction didn't happen.
A century later Jeremiah quotes Micah and tries to excuse the failed prophecy by saying that "the Lord changed his mind" about that destruction.
(Micah 3:12 NRSV) Therefore because of you Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height.
(~100 years and no destruction later...)
(Jer 26:18 NRSV) "Micah of Moresheth, who prophesied during the days of King Hezekiah of Judah, said to all the people of Judah: 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height.'
(Jer 26:19 NRSV) Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and did not the LORD change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? ...
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The prophet Daniel incorrectly states that in the third year of the reign of King Jehoiakim Nebuchadnezzar is king and that he conquers Judah.
The third year of Jehoiakim's reign was 606 BCE, at which time Nebuchadnezzar was not yet king of Babylon. It was in 597 BCE that Nebuchadnezzar takes Jerusalem, by then Jehoiakim had died.
(Dan 1:1 NRSV) In the third year of the reign of King Jehoiakim of Judah, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it.
(Dan 1:2 NRSV) The Lord let King Jehoiakim of Judah fall into his power, as well as some of the vessels of the house of God. These he brought to the land of Shinar, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his gods.
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Jeremiah incorrectly predicts 70 years for the Babylonian exiles but they only lasted 59 years.
The 1rst exile started in 597 BCE when Nebuchadnezzar first takes Jerusalem and appoints Zedekiah king (Judah's last king). Nebuchadnezzar has temple equipment taken away.
The start of the 2nd exile was in 586 BCE when Nebuchadnezzar takes Jerusalem a second time putting down a rebellion and destroys the temple.
The end comes in 538 BCE when Cyrus takes Babylon and ends the Babylonian kingdom. Jews are then allowed to return to Judah.
(Jer 29:10 NRSV) For thus says the LORD: Only when Babylon's seventy years are completed will I visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.
To name a few. Sorry mate, the Bible is not inspired.
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Jeffro
Sam the Man
The prophet Daniel incorrectly states that in the third year of the reign of King Jehoiakim Nebuchadnezzar is king and that he conquers Judah.
The third year of Jehoiakim's reign was 606 BCE, at which time Nebuchadnezzar was not yet king of Babylon. It was in 597 BCE that Nebuchadnezzar takes Jerusalem, by then Jehoiakim had died.Daniel used the accession-year system and did not count either Jehoiakim's or Nebuchadnezzar's first (accession) years. Daniel 1:1 is consistent with Jeremiah 25:1. (Jeremiah did not use the accession-year system and so the number of years he assigns to reigns are one higher).
Of course, the Society's explanation for this alleged discrepancy is way off.
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Hellrider
If you look in the current book study book, Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy, page 46, it says, "In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign as world ruler (606/605 B.C.E.), God sent him a terrifying dream."This is in contradiction to page 64 that says, "In the fourth year of his reign (620 B.C.E.), Nebuchadnezzar made Judah his vassal kingdom."Which one is right
God, how annoying this is. Their "scholarship" really sucks. No wonder no JW will ever understand the 607-thing. Listen, I remember as a teenager we were studying these things at a meeting. This was 15-16 years ago, and I clearly remember looking at the king list. I didn`t undestand, cause the king list had the correct (secular) dates, and still we were told that Jerusalem fell in 607!?!?! I understood that something was wrong, but when I asked the people that sat around me, they all frowned at me and waved me off for not understanding. How ironic!!! I sat there, and had actually understood, at that young age, that something was wrong, and all these arrogant, stuuupid adults sat around me and looked at me like a retard for daaaring to, not even point out an error, but to ask them to explain to me this disreprancy. Oh God, the irony!
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a_ Christian
Scholar, On more than one occasion you have referred to "Neb's missing seven years of kingship." However, the history of Nebuchadnezzar's reign is very well documented in the scriptures and in extrabiblical sources. A thorough review of all of this information shows that it is impossible to find a period of 7 years within his reign of 43 years when Nebuchadnezzar was absent from his throne or inactive as ruler. With this in mind, it seems unlikely that the "7 times" of Daniel 4:25 could have referred to a period of 7 years. Babylonian history does, however, allow for Nebuchadnezzar to have been away from his throne for seven years. JWs tell us Daniel's seven "times" were actually seven "prophetic years" containing 360 days each, with each of those 360 days in each of those seven "prophetic years" representing a true solar year containing 365.25 days. Of course, the Bible itself says no such thing. This is only highly questionable prophetic speculation. The fact of the matter is, since Babylonian history seems to clearly indicate that Nebuchadnezzar was never inactive as Babylon's ruler for seven consecutive years, some Bible commentators believe that Daniel's "seven times" more likely refer to "seven seasons" than to "seven years." If this is the case Nebuchadnezzar would have only been away from his throne for 1/4 of seven years. The idea that Daniel's "seven times" referred to seven "prophetic years" of 360 days each is based on the belief that the "1260 days" spoken of in Rev. 12:6 are there equated with the "3 1/2 times" spoken of a few verses later in Rev. 12:14. But this is not necessarily so. Some have said that the 1260 days in Rev. 12:6 may have been meant to refer to the time when Christianity was protected after the time of Christ's ascension and before the time the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles in 36 AD. Then, when the Good News began to be preached to all national groups Christianity took off, as though it had wings of eagles, and was thereafter protected for a second longer period of time. This second period of protection was the "3 1/2 times" spoken of in Rev. 12:14. This "3 1/2 times" would then be understood to be the period of time from 36 AD until the time of Christ's return. Since some interpretations of Rev. 12, such as this one, say that the "1260 days" and the "3 1/2 times" spoken of in Rev. 12 do not refer to the same period of time, it is only an assumption and very likely an incorrect one, that the concept of a 360 day "prophetic year" even exists in the Bible. JWs say God's righteous rule over the earth was pictured by the tree in Daniel 4. And they say that the time which that tree was cut down pictured the time which God would allow his rule over the earth to be interrupted. Many argue that there is no reason for us to believe that Daniel 4 was meant to have any "larger fulfillment" than the one it had on Nebuchadnezzar himself. But if God did intend for this passage of scripture to have a larger fulfillment, is the "larger fulfillment" proposed by JWs the most reasonable one? I don't think so. Other "larger fulfillments" of Daniel 4 which have been proposed seem more reasonable to me. For instance, it has been suggested that not God's rule, but Satan the devil's rule, was pictured by that tree. Like that Daniel 4 tree, Satan's rule and influence now fills the whole earth. And like that tree, the Bible tells us that Satan's rule and influence will one day be cut down and bound. The tree in Daniel 4 was bound with metal bands. Satan will be symbolically bound with metal chains. That Nebuchadnezzar was used to play the small scale role of Satan seems quite fitting. Nebuchadnezzar was, after all, a king who had persecuted and enslaved God's people. The tree was banded for "7 times." Satan will be chained for 1,000 years. How do "7 times" equal 1,000 years? JWs and others have speculated that it is God's intention to restore earth to a paradise 7,000 years after Adam's rebellion in Eden. So, everything in this speculative interpretation is based on this speculative 7,000 year period of time. Since "7 times" 1,000 years (7 X 1,000 years) = 7,000 years, the "7 times" spoken of in Daniel chapter 4 can be understood to equal 1,000 years. After those 1,000 years have passed Satan will be released from his chains just as the tree in Daniel 4 was unbanded after "seven times." Then, just as Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged God's sovereignty after seven times had passed over him, Satan will be forced to bend his knee to God before he is finally destroyed. For as the Bible says, "Every knee will bow." In the initial "small scale fulfillment" of this interpretation of Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar was removed from his throne for 1,000 days, a day for each year of the "large scale" fulfillment. Am I saying this is the correct interpretation of Daniel 4? No, I am only saying that if Daniel 4 was intended by God to have a "larger fulfillment" this interpretation seems more reasonable than the JW interpretation to me. Actually, to me, this interpretation seems much more likely to be the "correct" interpretation if indeed there is one. For Babylonian history does allow Nebuchadnezzar a 1,000 day absence from his throne but not a seven year absence. I hope you will stop referring to Nebuchadnezzar's "missing seven years of kingship." For the Bible never refers to any such period of time, and Babylonian history does not appear to allow it. Mike
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Alleymom
Mike ---
A very warm welcome to the board! What a great first post!
Marjorie Alley ("alleymom")
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Alleymom
Narkissos ---
The way I save the Hebrew text as an image is that I copy it onto the clipboard and then paste it into Adobe Photoshop, where I save it as a jpeg file. Then I upload the file to www.strike9.com.
It's a nuisance, but it works.
Regards,
Marjorie -
stillajwexelder
mike - aka a-christian welcome to the board. Thankyou for your post