The Bible...trust in Faith or trust in Fact? (page 14)

LittleToe

Tetra:
Ya mean no-one has studied "spiritual experience" from that angle before, or is it just a personal hobby?

Hi Narkissos,
>Thanks for reminding that. Would you care to explain? What is "this"? If you refer to Galatians 3:28, to which you deny any practical implication, I fail to see how it can be any "improvement in women's rights". If you refer to 1 Timothy which you hold as a "permanent practical instruction," how so? For which women specifically?

First of all, I did not deny any practical implications. The 'practical implication' in Galations 3 is Paul's exposition on justification of faith. The topic of equality is expressed only as a vehicle to demonstrate that all persons who become Christians are saved the same way. The same applies to the master/slave situation.
Historically, women were not even considered competent to testify in a Jewish court. This is why it is so surprising that women came back from the gravesite of Jesus and testified to His resurrection. If one were making up a story it would be more likely that men would 'discover' this fact! Anyways, if I believe that if you check the historical references you will find that the emergence of Christianity was itself a boost for women to be closer to 'equal footing' with men. Look at the last paragraph to see the answer to, 'which women specifically'.

1 Timothy 2: 8-13
I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

This should be enough for the context. You see the phrases, 'I want' and 'A woman should'. These remarks are different from 'I do not permit'. This is a prohibition in contrast to a preference. The Holy Spirit is speaking directly through Paul in this manner to make it clear the order of preference that God expects. Paul finishes with the reference to Genesis, where the created order of God is first outlined.

1 Timothy 3: 1-13
Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task.
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

Husband of one wife is literally, 'one woman man' and speaks to sexual purity and not marriage, divorce or singleness. It also adds to the previous reasoning for 'a woman not to hold authority over a man'. Note that Paul is saying overseer, which is another title name for 'bishop' and 'elder'.

He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

We again see the reference to 'husband of one wife', which puts the office of deacon out of reach to women and that is exactly how the largest protestant denomination in the U.S. interprets this (Southern Baptists). You even see the reference to 'deaconess' which is 'their wives'. A deaconess is the wife of a deacon. It is not a position in the church. Paul does not specify any particular group of women, therefore the absence of this specification makes it all inclusive.
I have not addressed any other part of the previous post by you. I see no 'dissonance' at all here. I try to stay within the text itself for an individual interpretation then make comparisons with other scripture to arrive at a full context.

Titus 1: 7-9
Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus does indeed back up what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy. Scripture interprets scripture and that is the final authority to me. It may be an 'appeal to authority to others' but that is irrelevant from where I reside.
Rex

Shining One

Little Toe,
Calvinist amillenialist, perchance?

I am calvinist with the reservation that 'free will' works in concert with 'predestination' and is not opposed to it. Some calvinists are not clear about this in their teaching of the 'golden chain' of Romans 8: 29-20. My eschatological beliefs have shifted between premillenialism and partial preterism.

You are right, I am too qick too judge people....sorry about that!
Rex

Shining One

Leolaia,
What an accurate and detailed exposition on the scrptures in question and the proto-gnostic heresies....
However, the reference about 'women being saved by childbearing' is not talking about personal, eternal salvation, otherwise it would conflict with too many previous scripture, 'we are saved by grace, in faith alone and in Christ alone', as the reformers put it. You may have not mean't it that way and I just wanted to be sure.
Did you learn about the heresies in a church history course or possible one on the book of John?
Rex

Shining One

Defd,
You really need to consider leaving the Watchtower. Chruches are not at all perfect but they are usually not cultic, despite what some say about a fundy like me. LOL
Rex
Of the disassociated class, 2000

Leolaia

However, the reference about 'women being saved by childbearing' is not talking about personal, eternal salvation, otherwise it would conflict with too many previous scripture, 'we are saved by grace, in faith alone and in Christ alone', as the reformers put it. You may have not mean't it that way and I just wanted to be sure.

Oh yes, I agree ... this is not really positing a separate means of salvation apart from Christ. I think the formulation is rhetorical, perhaps indulging in a little sarcasm or irony; I think "being saved from deception" and "being saved from transgressing through being deceived" is the sense best supported by the context (cf. the reference to Eve being deceived in the immediately preceding verse), but since "save"/"salvation" is such a loaded word in early Christianity and since "childbearing" is exactly what prevents "salvation" from a gnostic point of view, I think the author may here have his eye on sarcastically discrediting this belief by using sóthésetai in this verse instead of some other synonym.

LittleToe

SO:

I am calvinist with the reservation that 'free will' works in concert with 'predestination' and is not opposed to it. Some calvinists are not clear about this in their teaching of the 'golden chain' of Romans 8: 29-20. My eschatological beliefs have shifted between premillenialism and partial preterism.

Interesting. Thanks for that.

FYI I'm also of Calvinistic persuasion. Touching Revelation I am preterist with a dash of "personal revelation" (e.g. Armaggedon occurs in every believer's life).

There are so many biblical dichotomies - "Man's responsibility vs God's Sovereignty" being the classic Calvinist one. I tend to hold a "dual-view" on most subjects, that there is a human perspective and a perspective from "eternity" that are simultaneously true, yet held in tension.

tetrapod.sapien

Ya mean no-one has studied "spiritual experience" from that angle before, or is it just a personal hobby?

a hobby of course.

BTW, i am keeping track of all the questions i have asked you that you do not answer directly.

another hobby perhaps...

TS

Shining One

>I think the author may here have his eye on sarcastically discrediting this belief by using sóthésetai in this verse instead of some other synonym

I never realized that before, thank you.
Rex

Shining One

Hi Little Toe,
I did appreciate you telling me about the features that can be used to quote from previous posts but Firefox doesn't seem to have that. You said:
>Interesting. Thanks for that. FYI I'm also of Calvinistic persuasion. Touching Revelation I am preterist with a dash of "personal revelation" (e.g. Armaggedon occurs in every believer's life).
I take it that you are not a hyper-preterist? This is from their web site: "We believe Scripture teaches Christ would come again in that first century generation while some of His original disciples were still alive, to judge the living and the dead." in other words, there is no future return of any kind.
http://www.preterist.org/whatispreterism.asp
>There are so many biblical dichotomies - "Man's responsibility vs God's Sovereignty" being the classic Calvinist one. I tend to hold a "dual-view" on most subjects, that there is a human perspective and a perspective from "eternity" that are simultaneously true, yet held in tension.
I think that is the most reasonable view also....here are a couple of good web sites:
http://www.founders.org/
http://www.str.org/index.htm
God Bless,
Rex

The Bible...trust in Faith or trust in Fact?

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