by jgnat 163 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Defd,
You really need to consider leaving the Watchtower. Chruches are not at all perfect but they are usually not cultic, despite what some say about a fundy like me. LOL
Shining one.
I cannot LEAVE something I am not in. The WTBTS is only a Publishing CO. A Legal entity in which JWS use to produce there liturature. I do not belong to that. I READ the WT and Awakes published by JWS. I belong to the flock of God. I am in Jesus fold of disciples. I belong to the CHRISTian Congregation.
Defd:
A little homework for ya: Have you examined the two questions that are asked publically of baptismal candidates, recently?
SO:
Sorry the "Quote" feature is of no use to you. It's handy, for sure. Can you see quotes ok, or do they mess up your own view?
I take it that you are not a hyper-preterist?
Not exactly, no. I leave open the possibility of a bodily return. However my current understanding would be that Christ "returns" in every believer's life, and that a resurrection and judgement occurs at the transition from this life to the next. Otherwise, how is it that some have allegedly spent thousand of years in hell, if they've not already been judged?
While I hold the view of an immortal soul, I hold "hell" to be an "outer darkness" away from the face of God, rather than literally worms and sulphur. I believe that some choose to experience that in this life.
Touching scripture (as this thread demands) I view Biblical literature (including the canon of 66 biblical books, the Psuedopigrapha and apocrypha, etc.) as spiritual diaries. I have no doubt that the authors are candidly attempting to express their subjective spiritual experiences, as interpreted through their senses and contemporary understanding, sometimes with a dash of alleghorical story-telling.
That having been said, beyond the two laws of love, most of the rest is commentary. I would rephrase them, for the same of modern ears to:
For in this the whole of the law is fulfilled (Divine and Human, eternal and physical).
Touching scripture (as this thread demands) I view Biblical literature (including the canon of 66 biblical books, the Psuedopigrapha and apocrypha, etc.) as spiritual diaries.
I would also include the apostolic fathers. Among the pseudepigrapha, I particularly appreciate the Odes of Solomon as a most sublime declaration of faith and love of Christ. Here are some beautiful gems that are found outside the usual Bible canon:
"My heart was pruned and its flower appeared, then grace sprang up in it, and it produced fruits for the Lord. For the Most High circumcised me by his Holy Spirit, then he uncovered my inner being toward him, and filled me with his love. And I was established upon his rock of truth, where he had set me. And speaking waters touched my lips from the spring of the Lord generously. And so I drank and became intoxicated, from the living water that does not die" (Odes of Solomon 11:1-2, 5-7).
"As the sun is the joy to them who seek its daybreak, so is my joy the Lord. Because he is my sun, and his rays have restored me, and his light has dismissed all darkness from my face. Eyes I have possessed in him, and have seen his holy day. Ears I have acquired and have heard his truth. Death has been destroyed before my face, and Sheol has been vanquished by my word. And eternal life has arisen in the Lord's land and it has become known to his faithful ones, and been given without limit to all that trust in him, Hallelujah" (Odes of Solomon 15:1-4, 9-10).
"Put on the grace of the Lord generously, and come into his Paradise, and make for yourself a crown from his tree. Then put it on your head and be refreshed and recline upon his serenity. For his glory will go before you and you will receive of his kindness and grace, and you will be anointed in truth with the praise of his holiness" (Odes of Solomon 20:7-9).
"As the wings of doves over their nestlings, and the mouths of their nestlings toward their mouths, so are also the wings of the Spirit over my heart. My heart continually refreshes itself and leaps for joy, like a babe who leaps for joy in his mother's womb. I trusted, consequently I was at rest; because trustful is he in whom I trusted. He has greatly blessed me, and my head is with him. And the dagger shall not divide me from him, nor the sword. Because I am ready for destruction comes, and have been placed in his incorruptible arms. And immortal life embraced me and kissed me" (Odes of Solomon 28:1-7).
"Fill for yourselves water from the living spring of the Lord, because it has been opened for you. And come all you thirsty and take a drink, and rest beside the spring of the Lord. Because it is pleasing and sparkling, and perpetually pleases the self. For more refreshing is its water than honey, and the honeycomb of bees is not to be compared to it. Because it flowed from the lips of the Lord, and it named from the heart of the Lord" (Odes of Solomon 30:1-5).
"As honey drips from the honeycomb of bees, and milk flows from the woman who loves her children, so also is my hope upon you, O my God. As a spring gushes forth its water, so my heart gushes forth praise to the Lord, and my lips bring praise to him" (Odes of Solomon 40:1-2).
>Sorry the "Quote" feature is of no use to you. It's handy, for sure. Can you see quotes ok, or do they mess up your own view?
Not at all.
"I take it that you are not a hyper-preterist?"
>Not exactly, no. I leave open the possibility of a bodily return. However my current understanding would be that Christ "returns" in every believer's life, and that a resurrection and judgement occurs at the transition from this life to the next. Otherwise, how is it that some have allegedly spent thousand of years in hell, if they've not already been judged?
Little Toe, God exists outside of this timeline since time itself is a part of creation. God resides in eternity and He sees all, past, present and future (to us). At death the soul goes to the realm of that existence, therefore (from a eternal perspective) all souls return and reside in eternity. None of us are there longer than anyone else! You must remember, so much of the Bible is written with our understanding in mind, so anthromorphisms are always present in scripture.
>While I hold the view of an immortal soul, I hold "hell" to be an "outer darkness" away from the face of God, rather than literally worms and sulphur. I believe that some choose to experience that in this life. Not only in this life, viz the end result of the pharisees and saducees who rejected the Christ despite the evidence of Him being the one foretold.
Also, look at John 3:16-21: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Wow... I've just joined this discussion forum, there are some wonderfully thought provoking posts! It's taken me a while to get here but I think it was worth it.
Firstly I can't resist but enquire Shining One, how you can be so resolute in your last post?
God exists outside of this timeline since time itself is a part of creation. God resides in eternity and He sees all, past, present and future (to us). At death the soul goes to the realm of that existence, therefore (from a eternal perspective) all souls return and reside in eternity.
It seems others in their posts have taken great care, choosing their words carefully, backing up their ideas with sound well rounded reasoning. Can I ask, is this, your quote (which is written as a statement of fact) a conclusion you've drawn yourself? Is it something you've read somewhere? I can't understand how you can be so unequivocal?
But getting back to it, I know it's a long way down the line, but I do have a small (some may say pedantic) problem with the original premise of the thread. I would like to "agree a different definition of fact". The definition given in jgnat's original post (one of the most interesting posts I've read in ages BTW) was
To me, a fact1 is something that at least two people can independently verify by observation.
...surely this definition is... how to 'prove' a fact as truth, as of course it's perfectly possible to have mistaken facts once believed to be true. I hate to muddy the waters, but IMHO most belief, scientific or religious, must be a matter of faith.
To pick a silly example... FACT: The earth orbits the sun - well at least I believe or have faith in that fact - I've never flown into space to verify it, and I certainly don't understand the maths proving it as such. You might say well it's been independently verified by observation - hmm, well what does that mean exactly? Well from my point of view, it means... some people I've not met, experienced something in "their reality" verifying the said fact. I would also say that it can be even more subjective that this!
I think it was the Inca's that believed a sacrifice was required to ensure the sun would come up in the morning, fact. Why is that a fact? Well it's been independently verified by observation. I expect hundreds of Inca priests observed and thought. 'Yep... Killed another kid last night and sure enough the sun did come up, must remember to wash down the altar for tonight'.
So getting to the point, the original post asked 'trust in Faith or trust in Fact'... I suppose what I personally asked myself was 'Can I believe in something that can not be proven or disproven as truth?' As a snap judgement I said "No", but as you can see from my reasoning, I personally can't prove or disprove most of what I've put my faith in anyway!
What's interesting to me is, the fact I think that God doesn't exists, kind of make me a hypocrite
Hi M*A*S*H, nice to meet you!
ShiningOne:
I use similar phrasiology.
"Time and the physical universe is like a teardrop in eternity, into which Calvary bisects."
I'm interested in knowing how you harmonise anthropomorphisation with inerrancy. Would you mind elaborating for me, please?
MASH:
Welcome to the board
You've hit the nail on the head as to why I usually preface my comments with "in my opinon / IMHO / I believe / ETC."
Little Toe,
>I'm interested in knowing how you harmonise anthropomorphisation with inerrancy. Would you mind elaborating for me, please?
I am afraid that I need a specific example in order to completely understand your question.
Rex
Hi Mash,
>Firstly I can't resist but enquire Shining One, how you can be so resolute in your last post?
"God exists outside of this timeline since time itself is a part of creation. God resides in eternity and He sees all, past, present and future (to us). At death the soul goes to the realm of that existence, therefore (from a eternal perspective) all souls return and reside in eternity."
1) I draw from scripture, viz. "In the beginning..." Genesis 1.1 and "In the beginning the Word" John 1.1.
2) Similiar scripture that applies (without getting down to specifics).
3) Attributes necessary for the concept of an Almighty God as described Biblically.
>It seems others in their posts have taken great care, choosing their words carefully, backing up their ideas with sound well rounded reasoning. Can I ask, is this, your quote (which is written as a statement of fact) a conclusion you've drawn yourself? Is it something you've read somewhere? I can't understand how you can be so unequivocal?
It is my conclusion. I might add though, you seem to know the lingo around here and I do hope you are not a troll (someone already here who has a screen name).
Hey, welcome, M*A*S*H, and thanks for the compliment (one of the most interesting posts you've read in ages). Do I get a ribbon or anything?
how to 'prove' a fact as truth, as of course it's perfectly possible to have mistaken facts once believed to be true. I hate to muddy the waters, but IMHO most belief, scientific or religious, must be a matter of faith.
I borrowed that definition from the web, and I think I can defend it (note my careful use of language). I may have to modify the definition to say that it is observable by two or more people, and continues to withstand the test of observation.
I agree that matters such as the construction of the atom we mostly have to take on faith, since the instruments needed to observe an atom invariably disrupts it. So scientists come up with ingenious tests (like bombarding the poor things with all kinds of objects and rays) and try and predict what will bounce off them.
The location of the sun, though, would be independently verifiable by triangulation. All we need is two dudes sufficiently apart on the earth with decent instruments. The poor Incas could maintain their "fact" so long as they didn't test the reverse. What would have happened one morning if they DIDN'T sacrifice a bunch of youngun's? Which a dedicated scientist today would undoubtetly put to the test.
Blame my inquiring mind on my mom. She enforced obedience by spouting a whole bunch of old wive's tales (don't cross your eyes that way or they'll get stuck). One day I tested her statement out, and it failed! Aha. I tested a whole bunch of other things, quietly, after that. (don't stick anything smaller than an elbow in your ear) I still do this as a Christian. (Does turning the other cheek really work? Answer... only in the long term.)
