Hahaha, GaryBuss, they really dont have a clue!!! Nice one.
Great Crowd vs. Other Sheep
by prophecor 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Sam the Man
Hahaha, GaryBuss, they really dont have a clue!!! Nice one.
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JosephMalik
It took me about 3 read throughs to fully get it, but it does a great job in blowing out of the water the concept that the "great crowd" is on earth.
ConfusedJW,
And you buy into that? Boy things are worse than I thought. The great crowd will be on earth as will everyone else. This is called resurrection. No one will go to a galaxy or place far, far away to exist in a non-human form like God for the rest of eternity. Has anyone ever taken a seriouse look at what this word Heaven really means or how Jews used it? Is this God's plan for us or is this what the serpent told Eve will happen when he said "and ye shall be as gods"?
Joseph
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amen
Witnesses have always a lenghty way to explain everythings, when things are so clear in the bible. The apostotles never thought 2 classes of christians. All Christians believe they are going to heavens, nothing less.
Jw's invented the 2 classes and are misrepresenting christians believes.
amen
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OldSoul
Archie,
To understand the problem with that teaching, you'd have to first examine the context of John 10:16.
The reason for using John as the starting point is because Revelations was given in signs and the meaning can be freely interpretted by whatever human is doing the reading. With the book of John, we have a historical context to appeal to for the proper understanding.
John 10:16 is part of an answer Jesus was giving to a question he was asked. The question is found at John 9:40. The question was raised when Jesus sought out a formerly blind man who was expelled from the synagogue (disfellowshipped). Some Pharisees had expelled the man, but Jesus sought him out. Pharisees traveling with Jesus, apparently trying to catch him in some sin, took offense to something Jesus said and asked, "We are not blind also, are we?"
Jesus answer begins at John 9:41 and ends at John 10:18. Keep in mind that the context of the discussion means Jesus was speaking in answer to the Pharisees, not to his disiples.
When he says, "I know my sheep and my sheep know me," Jesus is apparently claiming this expelled man as a sheep of his. How would the Pharisees have understood his comment at John 10:16? Well, when he said, "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold," what did he mean? Which fold, literally "yard", did the sheep he currently had come from?
The sheep he had already brought certainly did not come from anointed ones as opposed to an earthly class, the Holy Spirit had not been poured out yet. There was no "heavenly class" yet, even by the current teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. What could he possibly have meant by this statement? He was talking to Pharisees and, at that time, he was only bringing Jews with him. Which "yard" could he have meant?
Then he said the other sheep would also be brought with him, and they would become one flock under one shepherd. So whatever Jesus meant by the "other sheep" would not eventually lead to two groups, he specifies that it would result in one group. And it would be a group made up of sheep from two different sources, not with two different destinies.
The Gentiles were the other sheep. Heck, they still are. So the Great Crowd of Revelations does not correspond to them at all.
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
Leolaia
The Bible Students used to teach under Russell, and later Rutherford, the "mystery" doctrine, in which it was thought that the elect church share in Christ's redemption such that they together with Christ are the mediator for mankind. The Christ was in fact thought to be composed of Christ Jesus, as the head, and the church as the Christ's body. Those who were joined in "the Christ" partook of the bread and the wine, and when Christ said that the bread represents "my body," he was referring not to his physical body but the whole church. The mystery would be finished when the whole church is finally gathered together as the "Bride".
When Rutherford redefined the "great company" as referring to a class of Christians outside of the New Covenant, it had two effects. What was originally thought to be the "great company" (a secondary heavenly class) was merged with the "little flock", while another grouping would be gathered for the "great company" that would receive mediatorship of the New Covenant from "the Christ". This meant that the rest of humanity, originally believed to largely survive Armageddon and receive blessings mediated by the Christ, was now expendable for gruesome deaths at Armageddon. Rather, a relatively small portion of humanity would be selected before Armageddon as survivors, but who still receive their salvation through "the Christ". Thus, they are not in the New Covenant and do not partake of the bread and wine. At this time (1935), the vast majority of the Witnesses were of "the Christ", and thus would now be engaged in a new preaching work to gather the "great company" (that was probably the real impetus for the doctrinal change, as well as explaining why Armageddon has not yet happened). This was the idea behind the teaching that the separation of the sheep and goats occurs through the preaching work (taught by the Witnesses until 1995). The Christ would offer salvation to the world before Armageddon to join the "great company", and those who would be saved (the sheep) are those who respond to the message (while the "goats" would perish in Armageddon).
Several changes then happened. The notion of the "mystery" was strongly downplayed, tho it still occurs in Fred Franz authored books in the Knorr years (cf. "sacred secret"). The phrase "the Christ" (referring to Jesus + those in the New Covenant) was replaced by "the anointed", a phrase that essentially means the same thing (i.e. "Christ" means "anointed one"). A 1969 Questions From Readers article explicitly rejected the notion that in the NT, "the Christ" means something different than "Christ". But the function of "the anointed" was still the same as that of "the Christ". In 1979, the Society reinterated that "the anointed" are the mediator for the "great crowd", and the view has been expressed occasionally since. Thus, the "mystery" doctrine still exists....tho it has gone underground to some extent. But there was one problem with the "sheep and goats" teaching. Initially, the preachers were still largely members of "the anointed" who offered their salvation to the world, but eventually they were outnumbered....on a vast scale....by the great crowd who, due to the aging of the anointed, were the ones actually doing virtually all of the preaching. The Society still says that the anointed are those who represent his organization (which produces all the literature, the food of the F&DS) and salvation occurs through association with them, but probably to reflect the fact that very few of the anointed are actually preaching, in 1995 the Society rejected the view that the separation of the sheep and goats occurs through the preaching work.
Hope this helps....it's just an overview....
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M.J.
The Bible Students used to teach under Russell, and later Rutherford, the "mystery" doctrine, in which it was thought that the elect church share in Christ's redemption such that they together with Christ are the mediator for mankind. The Christ was in fact thought to be composed of Christ Jesus, as the head, and the church as the Christ's body. Those who were joined in "the Christ" partook of the bread and the wine, and when Christ said that the bread represents "my body," he was referring not to his physical body but the whole church. The mystery would be finished when the whole church is finally gathered together as the "Bride".
Funny how IBS and early JWs used to promote the concept of members of the "elect" (144k) being "one" with Christ, and called "THE CHRIST", yet could not grasp a concept of Christ being "one" with God and called "THE GOD". But that's totally an aside...
I did hear that up until the 1940s that the "Little Flock" was also commonly called "The Christ".
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M.J.
Wow, Leo. That's a great overview that really fills in a lot of gaps in the picture for me. I've been quite interested in the whole mystery doctrine but I have not found anything online that goes into much depth on this. Are there any good references out there?
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Woodsman
The Annointed being called the Christ really helps to put application to the scriptures,
Mt 24:5 " Many will come on the basis of my name , saying I AM THE CHRIST and will MISLEAD many"
Mt 24:23 "If anyone says to you, Look, Here is the Christ, or There! DO NOT BELIEVE IT."
Lu 21:8 "Look out that you are not mislead, for many will come on the basis of my name saying I am he and the due time has approached, DO NOT GO AFTER THEM"
Did you know the King James Version translates Lu 21:8 as saying that many would say"the time is at hand" and not to follow them. The Watchtower was using the KJV in 1881 when they published the book "THE TIME IS AT HAND" So why did anyone follow them?
On the great crowd I'll add that Rutherford referred to the annointed remnant as "Jehovah's Witnesses" and the great company were people who were friendly toward them. This is how they were to enter Armageddon but of course it never came and so they ended up with more and more Great Company joining them. Now 99.7% of the org is nonannointed Great Crowd. Does not make sense or harmonize with scripture.
John 10:16 is referring to the gentiles as someone said. The concept of the two groups becoming one flock is spoken of at length by Paul. Ephesian 2:11-22. It happened in the first century not in 1935.
Even the WTS says the Bible is written for the Annointed. It does not describe a relationship between Nonannointed Christians and God. The Great Crowd as defined by the WTS are not described in Scripture.
Just read some scriptures like Romans 8:14. The Great Crowd are not God's sons so are they not led by Spirit? You could go on and on but the point is the relationship they say the Great Crowd has with God is not a Biblical teaching.
The WTS's practice of saying the Bible applies to the Great Crowd "by extension" is fallacy.
Soon, Armageddon will not come and the WTS will have to change things even more.
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Leolaia
M.J....Timothy White's A People For His Name gives a review of the Russell-era teaching. BTW, this book isn't ever talked about (compared to CoC or Apocalypse Delayed), but it is a supreme history of the Russell and Rutherford-era WTS and shows exactly how Rutherford changed most of the teachings.
The Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society gives a survey of the mystery doctrine as well, up to the present day.