And the Word was with God

by Narkissos 70 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    No this is not meant to be another trinity thread. Rather another shamelessly speculative / philosophical one. One good thing with the latter: they are usually much shorter.

    So we often discuss how the logos was or wasn't "God/god/divine" etc. But very rarely how he/it was with God.

    Ho logos èn pros ton theon: pros + accusative; in speech -- which is, after all, what the word logos (!) is primarily about -- the preposition and case of the address, as when you talk to somebody. Was the "Word" directed to God as a prayer? A question perhaps?

    Or if we already think of the Logos as a "he"... was he before, in front of "God," as Wisdom was (Proverbs 8 etc.), facing Him and reflecting Him? Then, both the same and the opposite, as a mirror image or an imprint (Hebrews 1:3)? Was he not then against God, touching Him antagonistically, being against His bosom (1:18, eis ton kolpon) as the beloved disciple was to Jesus (13:23, en tô kolpô)? Hegel here comes dangerously to mind.

    Word and Thing. Word and Being. Signifiant-Signifié. Ultimately inseparable from each other (a word is a thing, if only in the time of its articulation and the space of its writing; and "thing" is a word too) yet irreducible to each other.

    Our "symbolical cut" (our only true cross?) in the bosom of "God". God truly in our image. Or we in His?

    A few months ago I read an article from Catholic theologian Christoph Theobald, who said that the classical Trinitarian doctrine was lacking "internal antagonism". I'm getting to think he has a point.

    (Oh, and you don't need to tell me I am crazy. I know. But I am all the more interested in the replies. If any.)

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Oh gawd, I want to reply to this one, but... must... go... to... bed!!!

    Hence this reply will enable me to find it in the morning.

    Bonne nuit, mon ami.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    No wonder I'm often called Narkosis... the miracle cure for insomnia!

    Sweet dreams, I'm going too.

  • Justin
    Justin


    The expression usually translated the Word was "with God" is pros ton theon, and literally means the Word was "toward the God." It is, of course, based on the Hebrew concept of the word of God. In Genesis, God speaks everything into existence. The psalmist wrote, "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." (33:6) Much like Wisdom, the Word in the Johannine writings becomes personified, and it is asserted that the same Word through whom God created the world has become incarnate (enfleshed) as Jesus Christ. But the peculiarity which you mention is that the literal Greek depicts the relationship of the Word to God the Father as a being "toward" that One, rather than simply as an existence alongside the Father.

    In examining the sourcebook of Hebrew Scriptures we discover that God's word returns to him when its mission has been accomplished. In Isaiah we read: "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." (55:10-11, italics mine)

    In John's gospel, the Word through whom God created all things has returned to the Father, has come toward the Father because the creative mission has been accomplished. Similarly, in that gospel, the Word incarnated in human flesh as Jesus Christ gives a report to the Father on his last night with the disciples, saying: "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (17:4-5, italics mine) Just as the Word could report back to the Father successfully after creation, so the Word could also render a good account to the Father after the redemption.

    (As an aside, for those interested in the original languages, the Hebrew devar (word) is usually translated by the Greek h'rema in the Septuagint, but John follows the usage of Philo who uses the term logos with its philosophical associations. Thus, logos and h'rema are synonyms and they can both refer to the original devar.)

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    The best manmade stories have that internal tension. Humor and pathos. Yin and Yang. The struggle makes for great action. The same in art, colors on the opposite ends of the wheel provide maximum contrast and eye interest. Like purple and yellow, my favorite contrasts.

    Perhaps, maybe, then, something other than a great story is being told. Perhaps, maybe, the nature of God is being described. Not as an endless struggle between good and evil, but a triplet of harmonies intertwining and enhancing each other. Complimentaries on the color wheel of life.

  • Tyre
    Tyre

    Indeed Trinity, Actually when Talking John 1:1 and Gen 1:26 are Talking about Trinity,

    Last but Not Least Trinity appeared in Gen 1 (First chapter in the Word of God)

    Genesis 1: 2 NWT

    Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.

    Could it be God's active force FLY over the Surface of the waters ?

    again, If the Holy Spirit were merely a force, then He could not speak ( Acts 13:2 ); He could not be grieved ( Eph. 4:30 ); and He would not have a will ( 1 Cor. 12:11 ).

    Another references : Holy Spirit ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 5:26). Holy Spirit is a Creator - (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4) and a Helper - ( Phil. 3:3), etc.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    ...

    In the beginning was a face-to-face confrontation.

    A difference within the same and a relationship within the difference.

    Againstness as in struggling against, or in rubbing against, or in leaning against?

    (As we interact against each other -- even here. And that's also an apology for not directly responding)

    ...

    Perhaps "God" is neither "out there" nor "within" but "between".

    Occurring in any face-to-face; that is, in any beginning.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    I will ramble some too:

    In the beginning was the word, logos. The logos was with god, a god that noone living in Judah at that time, had actually seen, so god was mythos. But God revealed himself thru Jesus Christ, therefore God wasn`t only mythos, God was also logos. The logos had always been, it was with God in the beginning, it was true all along, it wasn`t just a mythos.

    Myth and truth becomes one, and not only becomes one, but was always one, from the beginning, we just couldn`t know that for sure, until Jesus Christ came.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe
    Occurring in any face-to-face; that is, in any beginning.

    ...and any/every end (alpha/omega style).

    Isn't the world spun out of the omnipresent Divine power and mind, wherein the "Word" is the loom upon which it is woven?

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    As iron sharpens iron ,
    So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend
    Prov 27:17 NKJV

    Perhaps existence is boring without creation.

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