Posts by ellderwho

20

WTS statistics (1958-2002)

by onacruse in

year

regular.

publishers

Very interesting. Wilbur Lingle (Approaching Jws in Love) is working on another book, that in part, deals with the "Anointing" debacle and the inconcistincies in the numbers over the years up to present day

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23

The Memorial: Blasphemy or Monty Python Sketch?

by metatron in

soon the special night will be upon us, when millions of jehovah's witnesses.

will gather together for the sacred purpose of merely passing around the emblems.

of christian salvation and rejecting them.. this event proves to me that anything, no matter how silly, will be treated solemnly.

ellderwho

Never mind that the wine and unleavened bread are the very symbols of
Christian salvation.

Because of this very outward statement made by the Jw knowingly or not, solidifies the notion, the Jw does not really need the atonement. If the Jw behaves according to the outlined requirements, he can obtain "paradise" on his own merits. Relagating Christ to a good example, thats about it.

72

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus in

on a previous thread many other "troublesome" verses have been brought up.

i will take some of these and start theads for them.

due to the complexity of the subject, several threads each covering one or two verses will be started, lord willing.

ellderwho

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

ellderwho

Herk,

Why would you state your position and so easily back off. I'm sure in all your years you've been able to hone your position. But quite frankly you bring nothing to the table. I really wish you would.

As the Jw plays doctrinal and scriptual hopscotch when pressured, you seem when pressured to want to play lets jump from scripture, to you hurt my feelings, and Im not going to answer that.

So be it, my appologies given for the description of your answers.

I said the above last, for a reason. Then I left you with a question. Stop the nitpickin. And open your Bible to the verses quoted.

E

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

ellderwho

Herk,

Your seriousness has to be in question when you hold on to the word "grasp" with blinders on. And fail to look at the the context of the statements Paul makes when describing Christ human nature and Diety.

To convey the thought, Christ would "reach" or strain, or somehow struggle to attain equality with Yahweh is simply not what Paul is saying.

When the passage is read with your slant, it doesnt fit grammatically. Wouldnt it sound better if Paul were to say " equality was not something that Jesus was "grasping at"

Futher, what do you do with the word that in greek means " robbery"

I know you from past debates. I concur with Little Toe, your not that "thin skinned"

So be it, my appologies given for the description of your answers.

I await your explanation of Yahweh, Jesus and who made what.

E

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

ellderwho

3. THE HUMILIATION OF CHRIST (2:5-8)

Christ is the supreme example of humility and selfless concern for others (vv.
5-8). These verses, along with verses 9-11, constitute a grand statement on
Christology.

2:5.

Believers are exhorted to have the same attitude?selfless humility?
Christ exhibited in His humiliation and condescension. The word here translated
attitude is translated "like-minded" in verse 2.

2:6-8.

The word translated nature (morpheô) in verses 6 and 7 is a crucial
term in this passage. This word (trans. "form" in the KJV and NASB) stresses the
inner essence or reality of that with which it is associated (cf. Mark 16:12).
Christ Jesus, Paul said, is of the very essence (morpheô) of God, and in His
incarnation He embraced perfect humanity. His complete and absolute deity is
here carefully stressed by the apostle. The Savior?s claim to deity infuriated the
Jewish leaders (John 5:18) and caused them to accuse Him of blasphemy (John
10:33).

Though possessing full deity (John 1:14; Col. 2:9), Christ did not consider
His equality with God (Phil. 2:6) as something to be grasped or held onto. In
other words Christ did not hesitate to set aside His self-willed use of deity when
He became a man. As God He had all the rights of deity, and yet during His
incarnate state He surrendered His right to manifest Himself visibly as the God of
all splendor and glory.

Christ?s humiliation included His making Himself nothing, taking the very
nature (morpheô) of a servant, and being made in human likeness (v. 7).
These statements indicate that Christ became a man, a true human being. The
words "made Himself nothing" are, literally, "He emptied Himself." "Emptied,"
from the Greek kenooô, points to the divesting of His self-interests, but not of
His deity. "The very nature of a servant" certainly points to His lowly and
humble position, His willingness to obey the Father, and serve others. He became
a man, a true human being. "Likeness" suggests similarity but difference. Though
His humanity was genuine, He was different from all other humans in that He
was sinless (Heb. 4:15).

Thus it is seen that Christ, while retaining the essence of God, was also
human. In His incarnation He was fully God and fully man at the same time. He
was God manifest in human flesh (John 1:14).

Some have wrongly taught that the phrase, being found in appearance as a
man (Phil. 2:8), means that He only looked human. But this contradicts verse 7.
"Appearance" is the Greek scheômati, meaning an outer appearance which may
be temporary. This contrasts with morphe 4 ("very nature") in verses 6 and 7,
which speaks of an outer appearance that reveals permanent inner quality.

The condescension of Christ included not only His birth?the Incarnation in
which He became the God-Man?but also His death. And it was the most cruel
and despicable form of death?even death on a cross! (v. 8) This form of capital
punishment was limited to non-Romans and the worst criminals.

No better example of humiliation and a selfless attitude for believers to
follow could possibly be given than that of Christ. With this example before
them, the saints at Philippi should be "like-minded" (v. 2) and live humbly before
their God and each other.

Most of the contributing writers are Professors of Bible Exposition Dallas Seminary.

E

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

ellderwho

Herk,

If he already was God, what would be the point of mentioning that he did not grasp for equality with God???

Are you serious? You argue like a Jw. This ridiculous play on words.

Ph. 1:6 "who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. NAS

"who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" NIV

5For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, 6who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, Youngs Lit Translation

6 In God?s own form existed he,And shared with God equality,Deemed nothing needed grasping. International Standard Ver.

From the few texts above we can see the meaning that is obivious. From one claiming to be a adherant to textual perfection why is this one word "grasped" so hard to fit into your understanding? Because you have a predetermined agenda that Jesus cannot be God and man.

Side note: " thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (closer to Greek linguistics)

On the other subject you have evaded, is the creator issue, and claim I use one or few verses in Isaiah to expond the fact that Yahweh states he was alone. But fail to see I was highlighting the fact he said" I did it myself"

If you would consider context and the testimony of other passages, you would not conclude that God was all alone at the time of creation

Yeah, your right lets consider the following;

Gen 1:1, 2:7 Ps 33:6 104:30,

Isa. 40:28 the creator of the ends of the earth"

42:5 This is what God the LORD has says he who created the heavens and stretched them out"

44:24 I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself"

45:12,18 " it is I who made the earth" 18 "he who created the heavens he is God"

It matters not if Yahweh was alone. You have to agree though if Yahweh says "I made it" then we have to conclude that Yahweh did in fact do it. Then tops it off and says I did it myself.

Lets look at what Jesus does;

Jo 1:10, 1Cor 8:6, Col 1:16, Heb 1:10 Rev 4:8-11,

he was addressing the people of Israel and pointing out to them that no other God was present at the time of creation

Heb 1:10 He(God) also says "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands"

Whose hands pray tell would you say these are?

You might fail to see this if you don't read a good portion of Isaiah and you merely zero in on 44:24 and some surrounding verses

Herk, the bible must fit together. Not just your interpretation of Isaiah. Isaiah must fit with John, Colossians,Hebrews etc...

You wind up having to discard critical verses which identify Jesus as creator. Because you cannot have it this way. You somewhere along the line will have to create Jesus. And somehow insert this into scripture.

E

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

ellderwho

Herk,

God alone is the Creator of the universe.

Because Isaiah 44:24 states "I am the LORD who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself."

The Jw has a hard time with this as well, in the NWT the end of v24 asks the retorical question "who was with me"

This is a inescapable verse for the Jw when compared with the like Col. 1:16 Jo.1:3 Heb.1:10 If Yahweh was alone during creation of the heavens, then why is credit given to Jesus?

To follow up this thought, look at Isaiah 45:12

"It is I who made the earth and created mandkind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens"..

Others were his associates in the work

How do you reconcile this thought of others were his associates?

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

ellderwho

In the first chapter he told the Philippians that his prayer for them was that their love may abound more and more, that they may be "filled with righteousness that comes through Christ Jesus--to the glory and praise of God."

Also 1:19 Paul states " for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ" v22 Paul wants to be with Christ and does not say he wants to be with Yahweh. Would not Pauls hope lead him to desire to be with the "only true God" Paul seems to settle for Jesus.

From the above does Jesus have a seperate Spirit? And does it somehow differ from "the" Holy Spirit?

In chapter 2, Paul urged the Philippians to be humble as Jesus was. He described the exalted status of the man Jesus. As the reflection of God his Father, he was in the "form of God." Note that the text does not say he was God. As God's chief agent on earth, Jesus had been invested with a functional equality with God and was destined to sit at God's right hand.

You present what Paul states and leave out key verses such as verse 6 and 7 which explictly states;

"did not regard equality with God something to be grasped" Nas/ Niv

I cannot explain the Triune nature of Jesus, but Paul tells me I will not be able to "grasp" this idea.

v7 "but made himself nothing" Niv "but emptied himself" Nas.

The text does not say Yahweh did this to him (Jesus) that Jesus did this "himself."

The answer becomes clear when a person reads the letter to the Philippians in its entirety. Trinitarians take texts out of context just as JWs do, and then they build a case based upon that text without considering what the original writer had in mind.

Because Paul wrote this letter from prison, the main highlight is the fact that Paul still finds joy. Joy in who? Christ, not Yahweh. In all of Pauls suffering why does he find joy in Christ?

Phil. 1:1 servants of Christ, not Yahweh.

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

ellderwho

The Bible does say that Jesus "emptied himself," but it doesn't say that he emptied himself of being God.

What then did Jesus empty himself of ?