Posts by alonein321

44

Why is it so hard to deconvert the JDubs?

by alonein321 in

i was watching this q & a by peter boghossian (autor of the book a manual for creating atheists) on youtube:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zksbmdcczvu .

around 17:15 min, he explains that there are difficulty levels when it comes to religions in aplying these techniques.

alonein321

jgnat

I agree with him that faith is a virus that makes people use an unreliable process to find the truth or the answers. So, they make decisions that can harm themselves and the society. But, as he said, people deserve dignity and respect, ideas do not deserve respect. I certainly do not respect any belief, idealism or culture that is not founded on the truth, although I respect the people that have these ideas and I show this by being honest, clear, direct and open to change my beliefs if they provide enough evidence for their views. Take a look at this lecture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-7tHY_Yjso

10

My chat with an elder

by awakening in

jw
friends

my second chat with an elder focused on the lack of any archaeological evidence that the exodus happened.

quite simply it seems to me that a company of 3 million plus livestock could not possibly be sustained in the wilderness, and if they were there then there would definately be evidence.

one writer described the size of the crowd as - imagine 10 people stood side by side, well the line would be 120 miles long with a 3 million crowd.. the elder went through the insight book and discussed the organization of the crowd which has the encampment spread into divisions etc.

alonein321

About the Exodus, try reading the book The Bible Unearthed from Israel Finkelstein. It proves that, basically, we can't trust in any of the stories of the Bible before the division of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, even Solomon and David existence is chalenged.

But about the book of Isaiah there's two main points you need to know how to address:

1) The oldest records are the Dead Sea Scrolls, that date back to around 250 BCE. Take a look in detail if you want. So none of the prophecies about the destruction of Israel and Judah, which took place between 720 and 586 BCE, are proved to be foretold.

2) They like to argue that the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls proves that the prophecies about the Messiah in the book of Isaiah were made in advance. This one is tricky, and not all of them will admit it is wrong. The life of Jesus as we know by means of the four canonical gospels was written to fit specific passages of the old testament that weren't written with that purpose. All the supposed prophecies about the life of the Messiah, including his birth place, were poetical or prophetical passages that were not pointing to the Messiah. This reinterpretation of the old testament was made the writers of the gospels to convince the jews and the gentiles that Jesus was expected. Is obvious why the success rate among the jews was so low, since they knew the scriptures and its original context, so they refused to accept this reinterpretation. Also, the gospels were anonnimous, and you should take a look at the proccess of autorship attribution and the selection of these specific four gospels among a dozen of others written at that same period. The real life, activities, miracles, birth place, and many other things about Jesus is uncertain and is contradicted between the many gospel writers of that time, since none them were eye witnesses of his life.

So, basically, what the WT does today with the book of Revelation, is an old pratice that the gospel writers employed: trying to fit random passages of the scriptures in some meaningless historical event. I surely can sort out a dozen of random scriptures to prove that the Russian assault against Ukraine was also foretold by moses, samuel, job, or any other supposed writer of the past.

35

What was the "logical straw" that broke your camel's back?

by Pacopoolio in

jw
friends

i had a bunch of tiny little nags that always bothered me about the bible/god/etc.

that eventually led to me drifting away, but this was my personal, singular issue that no one could address.

i think i mentioned it before here, but, for summation again:.

alonein321

As simple as it may be, the logical fallacy of praying was one of my first clicks. After some time praying in a mechanical way I started to analyze it logically. Here is the reasoning:

Lets suppose that two witnesses in different parts of the world pray to Jeohovah at the same time asking for protection before going to service field. What are the possible outcomes?

1) Both come home safely after service field.

Possible Conclusions: Jehovah protected both; Jehovah protected only one of them and the other was lucky; both got lucky.

2) One of them comes home safe but the other one get robbed.

Possible Conclusions: Jehovah protected one but not the other (Why???); Jehovah did not intervened on both cases, letting one be robbed and the other not (Why???).

3) Both get robbed.

Possible Conclusions: Jehovah did not intervened on both cases (Why???).

Here are my thoughts:

The answer to a prayer is nothing more than selective human inference.

In case #1, one or both witnesses may assume that God answered their prayers, but thinking on the side of the robber, God would have to change his mind or the events in his life so he wouldn't have the chance to stole them, so God is interfering in his free will. (Do we have free will?)

In case #2, the witness that returned home safely may assume that God answered her prayer, but it implicates that for some unknown reason God didn't do the same for the other witness, which means God may have different plans for us. (Do we have free will?)

And considering all the hypothesis, if we assume that God did not intervene in any case, why do we pray for his protection? (Do God answer our prayers?)

If we pray, but its up to him to decide whether he will protect us or not, do we command our lives? Do the other person involved in the thief, car accident, etc, command her life? (Do we have free will?)

So I got my wife going in circles when I exposed this to her. The same will happen with every witness.

44

Why is it so hard to deconvert the JDubs?

by alonein321 in

i was watching this q & a by peter boghossian (autor of the book a manual for creating atheists) on youtube:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zksbmdcczvu .

around 17:15 min, he explains that there are difficulty levels when it comes to religions in aplying these techniques.

alonein321

FHN

Please, don`t try to infer the ideia from the book title. Try reading it first. But if you're afraid of brainwashing, you should isolate yourself from the entire world, since any person, book, tv program, movie, advertisement, etc, bear the risk of manipulating your mind. Or you should try being critic and reading everything with an open mind, while looking fo opposite views to reach your own conclusion.

44

Why is it so hard to deconvert the JDubs?

by alonein321 in

i was watching this q & a by peter boghossian (autor of the book a manual for creating atheists) on youtube:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zksbmdcczvu .

around 17:15 min, he explains that there are difficulty levels when it comes to religions in aplying these techniques.

alonein321

I was watching this Q & A by Peter Boghossian (autor of the book A Manual for Creating Atheists) on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zksBMdcCzVU

Around 17:15 min, he explains that there are difficulty levels when it comes to religions in aplying these techniques. Jehovah's Witnesses, he follows, is the top difficulty level and the group he has the lowest rate of success. He says it would take an entire book dedicated to deconverting Jehovah's Witnesses and people have asked him to do so, but he does not feel qualified for that.

Please anyone check out his words.

Maybe our community could offer him some insights or we can share our knowledge between us in trying to apply these techniques on our fellow JWs.

188

A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian

by cofty in

a manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.

peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.

- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.

alonein321

I was watching this Q & A by Peter Boghossian on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zksBMdcCzVU

Around 17:15 min, he explains that there are difficulty levels when it comes to religions in aplying these techniques. Jehovah's Witnesses, he follows, is the top difficulty level and the group he has the lowest rate of success. He says it would take an entire book dedicated to deconverting Jehovah's Witnesses and people have asked him to do so, but he does not feel qualified for that.

Please anyone check out his words.

Maybe our community could offer him some insights or we can share our knowledge between us in trying to apply these techniques on our fellow JWs.

13

Elder friend is reading 1984 from George Orwell - How to make him relate?

by alonein321 in

jw
friends

hey everyone.

i have and elder friend, he is 33, and he likes to test his faith by reading some science books.

he didn't wake up yet, but he is reading 1984 from george orwell now.

alonein321

Hey everyone. I have and elder friend, he is 33, and he likes to test his faith by reading some science books. He didn't wake up yet, but he is reading 1984 from George Orwell now. I've read this book twice when I was 15 and in the peak of my jw faith and couldn't relate it to the WT. Today (I'm 24) I start laughing whenever I remember the similarities between the book and the WT. Here is the thing: is there anything that I can say to this friend that would help him relate and wake up without making him suspicious of my intentions?

29

I need some urgent advice, please!!

by alonein321 in

jw
friends

here's my story.

i'm 24 years old and i live in brazil.

i'm a 3rd gen born-in jw and all close relatives in the borg (parents, grandparents, uncles, wife, inlaws) except my little sister (she's 16 and didnt buy jw doctrine).

alonein321

Thanks everyone for the excelent advices.

ABibleStudent

I have already considered translate jwfacts.com to portuguese, but I'm spending too much time reading books like God Delusion, The Bible Unearthed, How the Bible became a Book, What did Bible writers know and when did they know it?, Why Darwin Matters, and lot more books to strenghten my arguments when needed. But as soon as I catch a break I will put some effort on translating jwfacts.

About my current situation: I realized that there is no good coming from confrontation against my wife beliefs. I'm going to try and be a better husband and spend more time with her. I have a good money income, so we live a confortable life and she doesn't work. Another issue is we live 600 miles from our relatives. They live in Sao Paulo and we live in Brasilia, the capital. Our only friends here are the jws, and she can't leave them right now, so I have to be pacient and try the fade in plan, no way to DA. Thinking about the future, we have two possibilities: 1) she may wake up some time in the future and fade with me, so both of us won't lose our families; 2) If number 1 show no sign of chance of happening in a reasonable time in the future, we will divorce and follow our lives. Anyway, birth control we always used and I will be even more careful from now on.

I'll keep everybody up to date with my situation. For now, thank you very much.

29

I need some urgent advice, please!!

by alonein321 in

jw
friends

here's my story.

i'm 24 years old and i live in brazil.

i'm a 3rd gen born-in jw and all close relatives in the borg (parents, grandparents, uncles, wife, inlaws) except my little sister (she's 16 and didnt buy jw doctrine).

alonein321

Already read those, and Dawkins's books, jwfacts and everything. I'm entering on fading mode but I think I will eventually DA, and my wife wont be able to see her relatives anymore. So things are going to a dark path...

29

I need some urgent advice, please!!

by alonein321 in

jw
friends

here's my story.

i'm 24 years old and i live in brazil.

i'm a 3rd gen born-in jw and all close relatives in the borg (parents, grandparents, uncles, wife, inlaws) except my little sister (she's 16 and didnt buy jw doctrine).

alonein321

Here's my story. I'm 24 years old and I live in Brazil. I'm a 3rd gen born-in JW and all close relatives in the borg (parents, grandparents, uncles, wife, inlaws) except my little sister (she's 16 and didnt buy jw doctrine). I'm married an also born-in 3rd gen 1 year and a half ago, just married. I deprogrammed myself about a month ago and since then i renounced all my privileges in the Kingdom Hall and quit the preaching. I'm only going to the meetings to escort my wife. Here is the deal:

We've been having very heated debates about everything and I'm really concerned that I would never be able to wake her up. She is one of those jdubs you have to explain what she's supposed to believe so you can try to show what is wrong with it. I'm very disappointed and also is she. Tonight she said she doesn't know how long she will handle it. I'm not willing to make anything to save the mariage either. But I feel sorry that we are married for such a few time.

So, any advices, condolences, support will be very appreciated.