... in vietnam, as explained by tom delay (r)texas :"he and quayle, delay explained to the assembled media in new orleans, were victims of an unusual phenomenon back in the days of the undeclared southeast asian war.
'so many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself.
' satisfied with the pronouncement, which dumbfounded more than a few of his listeners who had lived the sixties, delay marched off to the convention.
During the American Civil War (I know, that was some time ago), Federal law allowed wealthy young men to literally BUY (for $300) less unfortunate substitute draftees. I suppose the substitutes had to offer themselves for sale - in effect, as mercenaries. While this may have been a deplorable practice, at least it was done openly, rather than via devious means.
Cruithne
.
i'm always willing to give a religion a chance, especially when i don't know much about it.
does this represent islam's view of women?.
I just read a book on Islam, The Islamic Threat : Myth or Reality by John L. Esposito. The author urges Western culture toward a more balanced view of Islam. He makes the point that on many issues, most of the negatives attributed to Islam were also characteristic of Christianity and Judaism until relatively recently, when "reinterpretations" allowed those religions to be compatible with modern ideas and values, like capitalism and democracy. (If I go into the pros and cons of capitalism and democracy in pracice, I'll do it elsewhere....)
Modernist interpretations of the Quran include these ideas: "the Quranic ideal (Quran 4:3 and 4:129) was in fact monogamy, since the Quran's permission for more than one wife was contingent upon equal justice and impartiality, both of which were a practical impossibility. [This] interpretation was adopted by most [19th- and 20th-century] Islamic reformers."
"Qasim Amin (1863 - 1908) ... denounced the subjugation of Muslim women as un-Islamic and a major cause for the deterioration of the family and society. ... He argued the equality of the sexes in in Islam, denounced vieiling and social seclusion as un-Islamic, criticized the ills of arranged marriages, and a male's unfettered right to divorce and a wife's inability to do so."
All of that said, it would appear that even liberal Islam currently tends to lag behind the West in terms of according "equality of the sexes."
Like the Bible, the Quran includes a strict code of sexual morality, to which literalists feel required to adhere.
I think/feel that it is very important to strive for a balanced understanding of Islam, esp. since our culture currently tends to embrace and propagate a negatively-biased and distorted perception. If you want a good overall understanding, read this book - preferably more than once. I don't think I've quite gotten the full picture, after reading it once. The short version of its conclusion is that Muslim culture is very diverse and complex, and no stereotype can possibly do it justice.
George
recently i had the opportunity to read the first three or four chapters of a very interesting book: the jesus mysteries : was the "original jesus" a pagan god?
i regret that circumstances prevented me from completing my reading.
i may choose to purchase a copy of this book for my personal library, and so that i can finish reading it.
Thanks for that lovely, well-stated post. I love it when other people articulate reasons why I self-identify as Pagan. As far as authors and books go, I have found Starhawk's writings to be very helpful in that regard.
George
recently i had the opportunity to read the first three or four chapters of a very interesting book: the jesus mysteries : was the "original jesus" a pagan god?
i regret that circumstances prevented me from completing my reading.
i may choose to purchase a copy of this book for my personal library, and so that i can finish reading it.
Could you please post the information sources that you're evidently drawing from? Or at least offer a "serach path" that will turn up such information?
Thanks,
George
this is our first christmas as a family after leaving the cult that defiles gods name.
its been a good year, not only have we left the cult but so have most of our family.
its wonderful to finally be free of the hateful/doublefaced society and to finally see how others worship the almighty god.
Yes, all things considered, it is a blessing to leave. Some of us, including me, have been through a lot of trauma in connection with leaving - although my personal trauma was more connected with being in than with leaving - leaving was the first step toward healing the wounds and defects that led to the trauma. If it has been relatively easier for you (though I suspect it is never easy in an absolute sense), then consider that a blessing also.
Warm regards, happy holidays,
George
things other people accomplished.
when they were your age ...... this really pissed me off.
i dont think i have ever fliped off my computer so much before.
At age 49:
Jim Bakker, former PTL minister, was convicted of fraudulently raising $158 million in contributions.
http://www.themercury.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,8215848,00.html
getting a foot in door
by heather low choy .
A study by the City University of New York indicates that in eleven years, the number of people in the USA identifying themselves as Neo-Pagans increased seventeen-fold (nearly 1700%). That's two or three orders of magnitude greater than the JWs' growth in the USA during that period - and it is especially interesting in that (in general) Pagans do not proselytize. (If you are of Germanic descent, Asatru would be an exception for you.)
It is very far from true that "all" new Pagans are young - I and some of my friends, among them ex-JWs, who have been drawn to Paganism over the past several years, are middle-aged - but the majority of them are relatively young. It seems quite common for teenagers to be attracted to Wicca and other Pagan paths.
I think the youth of this culture are a "growth market" for all brands of spirituality. (Ask your Mormon acquaintances from which age group they are drawing the greaterst number of new converts.) The Dubs' share is relatively small, in the grand scheme of things.
Cruithne
today was a good day.
saturday, no witnessing, no meeting prep, no skirt and no dubs, no rush to do anything in particular, went to the mall to get some things, bumped into my brother (non dub) and his partner and my 3yo neice, had coffee with them and hubby, chatted, came home, kelpie dropped by to visit, went grocery shopping with my neighbour, ......................just to mention a few things.
doing what i wanted to do!.
My elder friends (and I considered most of the elders my friends) said that I was good at telling on myself. I was counseled on several occasions for things like my hairstyle, spreading gossip and rumor (ouch - they were right about that one, and I learned a lesson, I think and definitely hope). Theone area in which I had what might be called persistent problems was music. I always viewed it (the music I was attracted to, anyway, not necessarily YOUR music [LOL]) as "art," and therefore somehow - except in obviously extreme cases - above petty moralizing.
The wife of a prominent elder and I had a discussion about music, in which she expressed her taste for "beautiful classical music," including religiously-oriented pieces; I recall Handel's Messiah being explicitly mentioned. She said that one might "forget about" the "false religious" connections in order to enjoy such pieces. However, a lot of folks had difficulty forgetting about the various interesting connections that the music I enjoyed had. I liked "world music" long before it became popular. In general, the music to which I was attracted was almost all on the Society's and my fellow Dubs' shit list. A few examples:
Classical music: Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring; Moussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain (pieces inspired by Paganism and witchcraft)
Indian classical music (Ravi Shankar and the like) - philosophical rooted in, and inseparable from, Hinduism
Harry Partch - an iconoclastic American composer, whose pieces were based on myths, ancient Greek drama, and generally very Pagan themes. Also, his music sounds, literally, like it came from another planet or dimension; I can understand "the average person" finding it very off-putting. One brother for whom I played it closed his eyes and screwed up his face. I stopped the music and asked what he was doing. He said, "Praying."
The Mahavishnu Orchestra, a jazz/rock/Indian fusion band of the 70s, that centered around the technical pyrotechnics of the lead guitarist, who broke new ground musically, was elected "guitarist of the year" by Guitar Player magazine's readers two or three years in a row, and foreshadowed current players like Eric Johnson, Joe Satriani, and Steve Vai.
The Mahavishnu Orchestra and Harry Partch were characterized by one dub, who expressed his opinions behind my back, as "demonistic, Hinduistic and Buddhistic."
I wonder what the "brothers" would have to say about my current interest in Arabic (Muslim) and Sufi music.
I have never had much tolerance for abusive lyrics, which have become more prevalent, esp. (to my perception) in rap and related genres.
That's my story.
Cruithne, he of eclectic / artistic tastes
many on here left the watchtower for various reasons.
did any of you re-evaluate his deity after you left?
do you think that the watchtower has been accurate in the way they present what other's believe about jesus christ and his relationship to the father?
Was Jesus a historical person? We were certainly conditioned to think so by the bOrg, and most Christians definitely think he was. It is a long-standing tradition in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Chistianity, Islam) to think that "our Scriptures give us historical accounts of the truth." (Some also believe that the Vedas are literal accounts of true history. I'm interested in reading a scholarly book or two on that subject.) Yet, some possibly cogent challenges to such assumptions have been raised.
Recently, I had the opportunity to read the first 3 or 4 chapters of the book The Jesus Mysteries : Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? The authors do a good job (an amazingly good job, for some no doubt a disturbingly good job) of correlating the events of Jesus' life, and his teachings, as reported in the Bible, with the myths and mysteries of Paganism that were vital, well-known, and compelling for many people in the Middle East in Biblical times. The point is well made, and well documented, that educated Pagans of the early Christian period were incensed because they saw Christianity as offering absolutely nothing new, except the conviction that their peculiar repackaging of well-known myths and doctrines was literal, historical truth; the belief that those who persisted in their adherence to other religions or spiritual paths would unquestionably be eternally destroyed by their God; and a fanatical and warped desire to die as martyrs. (It was quite amazing to me, in reading The Gnostic Gospels a few months ago, to learn - by reading their own words - how ardently many early Christians desired to be tortured and killed for Christ.)
The authors make it clear that they did not begin their research with a bias toward their final conclusion, or even a glimmering of it, but they claim that their research ultimately led them to conclude that when one subtracts out everything about Christianity that was "obviously" plagiarized from Paganism and grafted onto Jewish roots, one is left with ... nothing. I.e. no historical Jesus, and nothing (of a positive nature) in Christianity that was religiously innovative.
I want to read the rest of the book, and re-read the early part more critically.
I have over time come across other material of similar nature: Achraya S's The Christ Conspiracy : The Greatest Story Ever Sold, [separate link:] The Bible Fraud, and jesuspuzzle.com. While I do not sense within myself a need or desire to "prove Christianity false," I am ready to entertain such information and arguments open-mindedly.
George
it took a few years of being out of the borg, but i eventually realized that i was stuck in a "people pleaser" mode.
i was terrified of displeasing people and experiencing their resulting wrath.
because of this i would always suppress my own anger or displeasure toward things that happened.. it's odd, but i did not know that i had the right to get angry... other people had the right, but i did not.
My experience as a JW was that the religion multiplied my reasons to feel angry (in reaction to hurts and frustrations, which also seemed to be multipled), but made me feel extremely guilty about expressing my anger - which added to my hurt and frustration. I was caught in a vicious cycle of emotoinal pain / frustratoin / anger. Nowadays, I seldom get beyond the "mildly peeved" stage, and if I use a few colorful adjectives, it is usually no big deal, although I do try to avoid offending people (unless doing so just comes with the territory of taking care of necessary business).
