Posts by CruithneLaLuna

5

Identifying with a religious group - what does it mean to you?

by CruithneLaLuna in

jw
friends

directed to those who since leaving the dubs have attached themselves (strongly or loosely) to another religious or spiritual group: how would you describe the group, your relationship to it, and why it appeals to you?

if you want to mention the group's name, that's okay, but one thing i have noticed is that there is a vast difference in implications and ramifications between saying "i am one of jehovah's witnesses" and saying "i am a _____" - almost anything else.

exactly what identifying with the group means is at least as diverse as the groups themselves, or perhaps as diverse as the individuals who so identify.. i am personally acquainted with ex-jws who "are" roman catholic, protestant, what i call in a rather generic sense "orthodox christian," unitarian-universalist, buddhist, hindu, and a perhaps surprising (seemingly disproportionate?

CruithneLaLuna

Directed to those who since leaving the Dubs have attached themselves (strongly or loosely) to another religious or spiritual group: How would you describe the group, your relationship to it, and why it appeals to you? If you want to mention the group's name, that's okay, but one thing I have noticed is that there is a vast difference in implications and ramifications between saying "I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses" and saying "I am a _____" - almost anything else. Exactly what identifying with the group means is at least as diverse as the groups themselves, or perhaps as diverse as the individuals who so identify.

I am personally acquainted with ex-JWs who "are" Roman Catholic, Protestant, what I call in a rather generic sense "orthodox Christian," Unitarian-Universalist, Buddhist, Hindu, and a perhaps surprising (seemingly disproportionate?) number of Neo-Pagans. I'd like a better understanding, based on a sample from this forum, of the spectrum of possibilities - again, not so much in terms of beliefs and practices, but as to one's sense of identification with the group.

Cruithne

13

What do you think is the best way to deal with karma?

by CruithneLaLuna in

oh, i am confused.

someone has given me a little taste of my own medicine, and i don't like it.. here we are, very close to eleven years later to the day.

does anyone know of some astrological or other synchronistic significance of a period of eleven years?.

CruithneLaLuna

Thanks for all of your comments, ranging from serious to facetious (or facetious to serious).

The situation has to do with dumping and being dumped, as a lover and as a friend. This time, I am the dumpee. It is quite interesting how in a very short length of time, the story one hears from the other party can go from wanting to spend the rest of our lives together, to essentially "there is no room for you in my life." When this person wanted me, or thought she did, she conveyed the best love lines and sweet nothings that anyone has ever offered me. What I have experienced, therefore, has been something like the Amazon River being diverted into a new channel, with my little hamlet on the banks left high and dry. Where did my fishing industry go?

What I am having the most trouble with is not being let go as a lover, but being shut off and shut out completely. This person dripped and dripped until I decided I liked the water, then turned on the fire hydrant for a while (expressing intent never to turn it off), and then suddenly spun the valve completely shut. Actually, it was in two stages: 1. "Here are the reasons why we can't be lovers any longer, but we can try being best friends again (as we were previously);" then 2. (a week or so later) "Here are the reasons why we can't have an active friendship any longer." Of course, the other party explains kindly why all of this change is necessary, in order for her needs, wants, whims, and general agenda in life to be fulfilled.

I did something similar to someone else, feeling it was necessary, almost exactly eleven years ago.

Last night, I indulged in a prayer ritual, and while I was in Sacred Space, I could feel nothing negative whatsoever toward my former lover. I was able only to bless her and wish her well, to hope and pray for her happiness and fulfillment. Although my ego is taunting me, calilng me a weakling, wimp, etc. - evidently expecting me to react angrily to being hurt - I think the ego is just being its bad little self, and while I can let it throw its tantrums internally, I don't have to manifest them externally. Maybe the ego can learn the lesson that all of that ranting and thrashing doesn't acomplish anything good for anyone.

Regarding karma, I don't know if I believe in it exactly as propounded by a given religion or philosophy, but it is interesting how often life serves as our teacher. Whether it is God, spirit guides, our own subconscious, or "chance" that determines that we need to learn from a taste of our own medicine, sometimes things do work to that effect, almost uncannily (as they say).

Cruithne

13

What do you think is the best way to deal with karma?

by CruithneLaLuna in

oh, i am confused.

someone has given me a little taste of my own medicine, and i don't like it.. here we are, very close to eleven years later to the day.

does anyone know of some astrological or other synchronistic significance of a period of eleven years?.

CruithneLaLuna

Oh, I am confused. Someone has given me a little taste of my own medicine, and I don't like it.

Here we are, very close to eleven years later to the day. Does anyone know of some astrological or other synchronistic significance of a period of eleven years?

I am loathe to give details, and after trying to explain why I realize that I can't.

Anyway, based on what little I am able to reveal, "in this sort of situation" do you think I should thank this person who has treated me in a manner that almost anyone would consider shoddy (let's just say that I wouldn't expect people to volunteer for such treatment, and most wouldn't accept it in exchange for a large sum of money) ... as I was saying, should I thank this person for being my teacher, and bless the person's course in life (send good wishes and "positive energy"), or find someone whose shoulder I can cry on, and not gossip but ... you know, talk about what happened and how I feel, etc.

It is hard to go looking for a friend when you have been seriously let down by someone whom you counted one and expected to be a faithful friend.

Doing mental / emotional spirals (alternately clockwise and counter-clockwise) and looking for an appropriate ritual,

Cruithne/Enhtiurc

27

Suppose You Said "I Forgive the Watchtower"?

by metatron in

you may be confronted with relatives and witness friends who annoy you, with self-righteous comments about "coming back.

to the 'truth' and other judgemental urgings.. suppose you replied "i forgive the watchtower society for the terrible things they've done, i need to do that so i can progess as a. spiritual person".. such a response might be very disarming - and difficult to counter.. witnesses generally reject the notion that the watchtower can ever do anything wrong - rationalizing that any cruelties they.

inflict are somehow part of a greater divine purpose.

CruithneLaLuna

Forgiveness is an interesting subject. You'd think it would be very simple, but it is not. I do think that most people, most of the time, are doing what they believe to be right and/or necessary. That does not mean that consequences do not accure to them and to others because of their acts; it does not justify the acts. It does not make all affronts and injuries easily forgiveable.

I agree with Amazing that the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses corporately should be held accountable to society, and that justice should be done by exacting and extracting from them appropriate recompense, to the extent possible - or at least, that I would feel a sense of satisfaction in seeing that happen. On the other hand (there's always a "but"), in order for this to happen, wouldn't it be necessary for government to become much more meddlesome in the area of religion, and would that really be a good thing? The consensus of our society currently seems to be that, except in fairly extreme cases, the damage and threat to individual liberty that comes from government intervention in the religious arena is too great a price to pay for the rectifications and restitutions that we (individuals, and groups with common concerns, such as "ex-JWs") might like to see ordered and enforced.

Perhaps the best way to deal with the WTS is to do one's part in the letting the truth be known, by telling our stories and exposing them for what they are. This is not the easiest or quickest, and probably not the most personally satisfying, of solutions, but in the long run it may be the one that is least likely to involve a 'cure that is worse than the disease.' Education is a potent tool, generally underappreciated and underused.

Cruithne/Enhtiurc

27

This prisoner is a hero!!!

by donkey in

jw
friends

.

CruithneLaLuna

While as an individual I strive to be non-judgmental, and yes that includes every person and every action that people commit, I recognize the right of individuals to protect themselves and their families, and the right of society that extends beyond the family to protect itself. While I regret that the only solution to some problems still seems to lie in violence, I am not motivated by a sense that vengeance is in any way appropriate. I find it disturbing that so many people can be aroused to such anger and hate. Those of you who are so glad that this man died, and perhaps take pleasure in picturing and even vicariously participating in his murder, if your child did something completely unacceptable, would you punish him or her with the same kind of anger? If that idea seems repulsive to you, as I hope it does, recall that each of us is someone's child; most religions consider us all children of the Divine.

Maybe the death penalty is the best that society can do to mitigate some types of crimes, but I would ike to think that the human race is in the process of evolving beyond that; or that at east we have that potential.

Cruithne/Enhtiurc

42

Is there one thing that convinces you that the JW's are wrong ???

by run dont walk in

doctrines, people, elders, family, beliefs, is there a certain thing that convinces you they are wrong ???.

had a discussion with my mom the other day and she asked "how can you be so sure they are wrong ?".

i picked two topics that i had not talked to her about ( already said the pedophile, un, generation stuff.).

CruithneLaLuna

There is always the straw that breaks the camel's back. I will tell of one point, certainly not the only one, but the realization hit me at the right time and tipped the balance, enabling me to shake off the Society's mind-control enough to take a more objective view, and quickly decide to leave the organization.

Early in my career as a "Bible student" of the Witnesses, the Truth book appeared. One of the things said in that book is something to the effect that if two statements are made that contradict each other, they cannot both be true. The idea seemed to be that one would be true and the other false, or both would be false. To a lot of peole, this seems like good common sense. Unfortunately, it is very simplistic. It is also dualistic, and I have learned to question dualism (and to a large extent, reject it).

The apple is red, the apple is green. While it may be predominantly red, it may also be green. One statement is not 100% true; the other, "contradictory" one, is not 100% false. The reasoning purveyed by the JWs on the nature of truth may or amy not be harmonious with the Bible, but it is certainly Aristotleian. Yes, old Aristotle todl us that the world is true/false, good/evil, black/white, and people were so taken with dualism (particularly Aristotle's version of it) that our culture is still suffering severe pains today as a result.

This idea may seem abstract, but the book that opened my eyes about it (about mathematics, computer science, philsophy, and the way the world really works) was so persuasive and incisive that it really shook me, and woke me up.

Cruithne

1

witness' from sacramento where are you

by the mole in

any jw's from sacto out there?

is there a support group for those in sacramento for those who disagree with the org.

CruithneLaLuna

Mole,

I will support you, if you want to talk with me. I live in Sac. Perhaps we could get together sometime.

Cruithne

11

The Enormity of It All

by Swan in

occasionally the enormity of it all just comes flooding back in on me.

at times it just seems so overwhelming.

at times it seems so incredibly fantastic so as to be unbelievable.

CruithneLaLuna

My children (still teenagers, living with their mother and their elder stepfather) have chosen to have nothing to do with me, and no longer communicate with me; but I remember trying to tell them, not that their "Truth" was a big lie, but that as one who had deliberately turned my back on the religion and walked away, I was learning that the impression that the Society gives JWs about many supposedy "bad" things are biased and skewed. That didn't go over very well, of course.

Many here would doubtless say that I have taken this to extremes, athough I do not engage in anti-social behavior, or promote anything that I consider likely to harm anyone. In fact, I consider that everything that was good about me that harmonized with Dubism has been strengthened and refined since I left the org; and gratitude is due for release from senseless struggles with one's own humanity, that one cannot truly win. (Try to kill nature, and your own death is the most likely result. This is true on so many levels.)

I don't mean to write in riddles, but I agree "it's enormous," and therefore I don't plan to go into detail here and now.

Cruithne/Enhtiurc

39

The Scriptures

by KGB in

jw
friends

the scriptures are some of the oldest books in the world known to man with dates included now how do you suppose that can be, that these books have survived this long, many thousands of years ?

hmmmmmm i don't see any other book on the shelf as long as this book not even any other history book as far as that goes, now i wonder why a book that supposedly is nothing more than a lie or uninspired as some of you put it would survive that long.

i wonder how christianity has lasted as long as it has if it is all just a lie.

CruithneLaLuna

I suppose I should add my two cents' worth to this discussion - the very brief form thereof, anyway. One does not "be" a JW for 30 years without giving a lot of thought to the Bible and the evidences offered for its inspiration by those who believe in it. And one does not turn to and adopt non-Christian forms of religious expression without thought, either.

In passing, one thing I'd like to say about "thought" is this: "Logic" that appeals to the intellect can be carefully crafted to justify any belief system, and to those who say that you can't trust anything that doesn't come from reason and logic and is based on well-"known" and well-"understood" facts, I will say that that is exactly the sort of thing that my experience as a JW taught me not to trust - at least, not without a lot more than the kind of pre-digested, pre-filtered "research" that the Society offers, and not without careful observation of the results of the application of what is offered as "truth."

Okay, so let's talk about the Bible's claim to be inspired of God. Specificaly, let's talk about the fruits of believing in and following the Bible. It's impossible to do that without simplifying and generalizing, and then some Christian can pop up and say, "but my personal relationship with God is different!" or "the denomination I belong to is different!" or "the non-demoninational church I belong to (at least) is different!" I don't buy any of that. What is genuine Christianity? Is it practiced by anyone today? I don't know. Let's ask Jesus. But we can look at the fruitage that has been produced by religions, in general, that have claimed to folow the Bible.

Basically, the history of Christianity is a long, bloody list of atrocities. It is very fair and accurate to say that Christianity and Christians have been responsibe for the slaughter of more humans (not to mention the other life forms with whom we share the earth) than any other religion. If you are interested in viewing a portion of this "long, bloody list," try this link: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/biblegod.html.

While we can all think of exemplary individuals who embraced some form of Christianity, and seemed to be motivated by their faith and (most of all) love, and with whose lives we are hard-pressed to find fault (may I suggest, for example, Mother Theresa?) - and I know many Christians who are very "nice people," whom I feel I can personally trust, and with whom my interactions have been almost uniformly pleasant - it seems that on the whole whatever benefits may be derived from the religion are overshadowed by a specter of what I can only call evil - anti-human, anti-earth, and anti- anything that can be reasonaby called an expression of the Divine. (What I mean by "the Divine" is, any god that I would consider worthy of my worship.)

Our worldwide society and civilization today are primarily the fruit of Christianity. (At least this is certainly true is we live in the English-speaking world, which is English-speaking because it was dominated for a while by the British Empire, or has been iontimatey connected politically and/or economically with the USA). While we acknowledge that we all benefitted from this civilization in many ways (do I need to list them?) it behhoves us to also look at the price that has been, is being, and will be exacted for these benefits. Part of the price fits in with the list of atrocities - neary all of the land and resources that have fueled our "boom" have been stolen from others, and whether or not it was easy to steal them, if those others couldn't be enslaved they were slaughtered - at least to the point that they would no longer pose a genuine or credible threat to the Christians' ownership of the land and resources of interest. Another part of the price is the ongoing destruction of the environment and our fair planet, which will kill us all eventually if we don't either stop it, or go out and find other environments and planets to destroy.

Whereas Satan's policy is said to be "rule or ruin," history proves that the Christian mentality is "rule, rape, and ruin." By "rape" I mean, sucking out of whatever people or resources are available whatever is necessary to fuel "our" all-consuming lust for money and what it can buy, and for power (which is usualy bought with money, by the way), and to show our contempt for everything that we did not invent or create, while as a group we turn a completely blind eye to all other considerations. Of course, there are always individuals who serve as a kind of corporate conscience, who decry what has been done, is being done, and is proposed, but their actual power to actually effect change and forestall or prevent the ongoing rape has been, in most cases, virtually nonexistent. And in the process of raping, we also ruin. For example, we call paving over nature and erecting Wal-Marts and freeways, etc. etc. "improving" the land. Take away the parking lots, the Wal-Marts, and the freeways, and although the land will eventually recover, I don't think it would be visibly "improved."

I can go on about these topics, to the length of one or more books, but this is not the place to do so, and my purpose is to provide a quick summary. If you're interested, you can go find the books, Websites, and other sources that abundantly demonstrate the overall accuracy of what I've written here.

In closing, I want to say that if Jesus Christ is going to rule the earth and solve all of our problems, as promised by the JWs and by the Bible as they understand it, I'll happily submit to and work for the aims and goals of the Kingdom. On the other hand, I have not found one "Christian" religious organization whose history or impact on individuals and society has exemplified the kind of healing that is needed for humankind and the earth. Therefore, I have turned to non-Christian spirituality and philosophy for my "spiritual food," knowledge and practices that I perceive as helping me to become a better person, one who is better able to contribute toward the creation of the kind of world in which I want to live, and the kind of society in which I could enthusiastically participate in a wide variety of roles.

Cruithne/Enhtiurc

21

I turn my back on it all

by CruithneLaLuna in

jw
friends

friends,.

in perusing the postings here in the "friends" section, i notice how many of us are still hashing over and rehashing the evils of the organization we were a part of, and how it hurt us, etc.

i got kinda down reading it.

CruithneLaLuna

Dear Brooke,

Indulging in something is not necessarily a bad thing. Indulging in a hefty slice of cold watermelon on a hot day, for example; or indulging in surfing the Internet when everyone including yourself can think of more "useful" things that you might be doing. Indulging in (what was I talking about?) talking about the evis of the bOrg and how our experience with it hurt is definitely necessary - up to a point. I did not mean to be critical of others, just was saying that reading or writing about such topics, for me, fairly quickly reaches the point where it is doing more harm than good, and my suggestion (pls note carefully my word choice) to all is, while let's all do as much of it as is truly necessary, let's concentrate as much as possible on more positive stuff, and work on replacing moaning over the past with joyous participation in the moment and productively working toward future goals.

Words like "indulgent" and "self-indulgent," while related to the verb "indulge," carry shades of meaning that I didn't intend. Those words are your interpolations; I don't recall having used them.

Please don't call me inconstistent because I occasionally write about my experiences, and one day yes I may write a book about them and/or the experiences of others. I would hope to thereby achieve the following goals: 1. help document the various ways in which the JW dogma and falling under the org's control harm individuals and families, and thereby society as a whole; 2. concentrate on recovery after leaving, and recount some of the paths that different people have followed, by which they have gained happiness and various kinds of success after leaving the org.

Friendship and regards,

Cruithne/Enhtiurc