Posts by OneEyedJoe

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

OneEyedJoe

So its good that the infant dies because it will be instantly transported to a better place. What, then does the infant gain during its time here? Is it not evil for god to bring a child into the world only to drown in a tsunami? Why couldn't god have just birthed the child directly into heaven? What loving person could look at the choice between birthing a child directly into heaven and birthing it on earth only to be drowned a few days later and choose the latter? The baby isn't cognitively developed enough to form memories or become self aware, so it brought no benefit to the baby. The baby is, however developed enough to fell pain, and I might remind you that a drowning death is tremendously painful - so much so that merely simulating it is considered a form of torture.

So, let me rephrase the question, what is gained by good allowing a baby to be tortured to death?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

OneEyedJoe

If an atheist could think of a way to explain away all the problems with theism (and especially the christian god) I suspect most would never have become atheists. So, sorry, we're no more equiped to tell you what answer to give us that would be satisfying than you are to come up with such an answer.

Unfortunatly, it seems that the problems for the god of christianity are so basic as to be problems with the very axioms of christianity itself. That is what is meant when cofty says that it is internally inconsistent. Trying to come up with a satisfying answer to these questions is like trying to come up with a satisfying mathematical answer to explain away proof that 2=5. If we had proof that 2=5, the very axioms of our mathematical system fall apart and there's no way to resolve the problems without coming up with a new system.

It's much the same with christianity. Proof exists that god could not possibly be omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. Those are the three basic tenets of the description of the christian god, therefore it is as catastrophic to the theory of christianity as would be evidence of 2 equating to 5 for mathematics.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

OneEyedJoe

The tsunami in and of itself is not evil, it's the fact that the tsunami killed a quarter million and god supposedly has it in his power to stop it. And since mountains are nothing but the film of dust on a scale to him, we are to believe that it would have taken negligible effort on his part to stop it.

This is akin to a father standing over his infant child as it lays in a shallow puddle, watching as a light rain slowly makes the puddle deeper until the child drowns. It would've been negligable effort for the father to pick up the child and keep it alive. If a father actually did this, I have no doubt that he'd be tried and convicted not only under our current system of laws, but under the mosaic law that god supposedly handed to isreal himself.

Why is it that god cannot be held accountable to the very laws that he has given mankind? It is said that his sense of justice is so extreem that he had to pay a debt to himself with the death of his son, but you're telling me that he can't be held accountable for preventing the loss of life that serves absolutely no purpose except to make people who believe in him question their faith?

40

I got asked THE QUESTION !!

by Tech49 in

a little experience that happened very recently:.

another brother, an elder, and i were talking, i was explaining to him and giving him several examples of how a couple of the elders in our congregation were blatantly trying to run their own show, parading themselves around as "representatives" of the body, when the other brothers didnt know what the hell they were talking about.

they are using their "elder powers" to bully and push people around, causing a bit of angst and hurt feelings.

OneEyedJoe

Paris - you're correct in how you describe official stance of the WTS. What Oubilette was describing is the functional doctrine. Since Jehovah isn't known for telling folks what to do directly, the GB has set themselves up doctrinally as his mouthpeice. Since you'll agree that this doctrine is false, and they are not actually speaking for Jehovah, you'll have to agree that the GB is acting on their own as if they were Jehovah.

The other bit about the way the WT consistently describes "Jehovah's earthly organization" or "Jehovah and his organization" explains how the WT creates a tacit mental link that eventually (functionally) becomes Jehovah=GB.

9

Anointedjw.org Is An Interesting Site

by metatron in

jw
friends

this 'everybody partakes' or is anointed is an interesting idea.

i do wonder if this clandestine effort is having an effect.. i was unable to find any explicit testimonies on the site - that is, naming names , as long as they have already exposed themselves to wts retribution.

they claim elders, co's and a do now follow them.

OneEyedJoe

I'm skeptical of the veracity of their claims, but assuming it's true-

Part of me is with you that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and I would like the WTS to reform. However, the only reform I'm interested in is the end to shunning and a stop to the policies and propaganda aimed at demonizing those who do not wish to be associated with the JW "religion." As an atheist that's stuck in for my wife, that's the only reform that helps me, aside from perhaps reform on the blood doctrine that could potentially kill my wife should some rare circumstance arise.

The other part of me feels like reform of the WTS is the worst thing that can happen for me. If the organization becomes more reasonable and places itself on a firmer doctrinal position, it becomes more difficult to point out the flaws and errors and corruption to my wife. So, in some ways, the worse the org gets the better my chances of making a clean break from it are.

If it is true that there is disention among the ranks - it spells change for the WTS and the GB will have to tread carefully to maintain control. If the GB is seen as capitulating to the dissenters "below" them, it will plant seeds of doubt (Fred Franz's infamous tail wagging the dog talk comes to mind) in many adherants and could potentially lead to a schism. A split in the organization would likely lead to oppurtunites to make an easy exit, even if one doesn't want to be a part in either of the two peices of the split. Just like when you break a peice of bread, there's lots of small individual crumbs that escape from the two halves. If such a schism occurrs, and I'm still stuck in at the time, I hope my family will be among the crumbs.

18

How have you changed since finding TTATT ?

by Phizzy in

jw
friends

on coftys thread about his former pastor trying to re-convert him, which is very long but a tremendous discussion of the problem of evil, a poster, sunny23, wrote :.

" having been 7 months since i first posted on the first page of this topic i have just read those posts and acknowledged a huge transfromation in myself for the better."..

i was only thinking the other day how, as i discovered this site and ttatt, i really changed as a person in so many ways, and i think mainly for the better.. i have been "born again" !!.

OneEyedJoe

I'm definitely more at peace with the fact that I'm an atheist, and ultimately have been for years before finding TTATT. Its also nice not to have an internal conflict about how to feel about homosexuals. Basically, I'm able to be the better person I always felt like I should be, but couldn't fully embrace because it conflicted with the WTS's doctrine and policies.

But since I'm still stuck in, I'd describe it mostly like one weight has been lifted and another has replaced it. I no longer have this internal conflict, but now I'm constantly stressed about how to handle my wife and how I'm going to get out and hopefully keep her.

17

Really weird sentence

by Moses Joe in

jw
friends

i've been absent from meetings recently because i'm having serious life challenges that make me really not want to have to deal with all of the people and the sitting.

i had made an attempt to, "simplify my life" that rather than being blessed was meant with unemployment.

lol.. anyway, i finally got tired of all the phone calls checking up on me and sent a message to someone explaining that i just wanted to be left alone (an elder).

OneEyedJoe

The phrase almost sounds like he's making a Poe reference (The Tell-Tale Heart). Maybe he thinks you've committed some serious sin and are trying to justify it by attacking the org.

10

TAKE IT EASY!! DON'T SAY THAT AFTER A CONVERSATION!

by NoMoreHustle in

this drives me insane when i am rebutted after i say "well take it easy brother so & so" after a small conversation.

they always seem to reply "we are in jehovah's organization there is no taking it easy" or "we are in the last days brother we don't have time to take it easy".

i guess this makes me a care-free man of the world rather than a spiritual man!!

OneEyedJoe

I remember getting very annoyed at my mother's reaction when I was much in my teens and a bank teller said take it easy as we left. She said under her breath "what if I don't want to take it easy?" It was so juvenile, it really stuck with me. I had no idea, though that it was a common jw thing.

20

Conversation with 4 elders: A study in smear tactics.

by problemaddict in

bucket shop bill has a thread in which they are "counseled" for something, that ends up not even being true.

instead of the elder who made the accusation apologizing to them, they are made to feel like they should appreciate his overexuberence.. it struck me that this is a common tactic.

here is a story of my own.

OneEyedJoe

That's so awesome. I'm totally stealing that if ever I have the need.

53

Sept 1 service meeting mystery revealed

by Saltheart Foamfollower in

the letter has appeared at last - just for uk.

it is a money grab for the new bethel which has been approved.

there is a video to be shown - just watched it - brief summary of uk bethels, why current one is too small, why we need money to build a new one.

OneEyedJoe

If it's going to be someone else who's adding everything up, fill out two slips. The first should be a largish sum that you'll never pay (which will hopefully force the congregation to give a number of local needs talks when they fall short each month) and the second should simply have "Matt. 5:33-35" written on it.

If you're counting it up, fudge the numbers so that you end up peldging about 50% extra. That'll really screw with 'em.