Sometimes I think they just change stuff to keep people interested. The meetings are so dull and the conventions are worse, so they have to throw in a little new light every now and again to spice things up a bit. They don't really care if the new light undermines a core doctrine that they still hold (as is the case with the abandonment of the types/antitypes as it relates to the FDS and 1914) because the R/F are, for the most part, willing to accept things as they're told. The few that do leave because of changes are easily demonized and provide an enemy to rally against and it pulls those who remain closer together. It has nothing to do with doctrine, it's just about looking busy.
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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10
Type and Anti-Type, the killing of the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Whats thier angle and how do they spin out of this one?
by Crazyguy init would seam that the changing of the type anti-type teaching kills their claim as the faithful and discreet slave class as it is only a parable according to peter at luke 12:41. obviously i don't think they will ever come out and actually say that the f&ds is just a parable, so when one asks what will the answer be, to spin out of this obvious problem?.
also what do you think is the reason for the change in this teaching?
is it more to do with getting rid of doctrine that can be criticized or could it be that they are trying to make it as though they are really not in control of the congregations so as to say we aren't responsible when the prosecution comes knocking over future pedophile case?
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need clarification: i told my wife the type and anti-type abolishment made the FDS a parable and not factual. boy did this piss her off
by goingthruthemotions inlet's just say i sometimes don't know how to keep my trap shut.
i really need to learn to keep well enough alone when she attacks me.
keep in mind i never start the fights about the borg.
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OneEyedJoe
Yeah it sucks, man. I know how it feels. The other day, not 10 minutes after my wife defended the cult and said it wasn't a false prophet, we were talking about how the WTS says not to read anything that's not from them and I asked her "would you go to a restaurant if the owner invited you, but cautioned you not to read any negative reviews because they're all written by liars. Her response was something about all the warnings in the Bible to be on the watch for false prophets. When she said that, I had an uncontrollable burst of laughter which definitely didn't elevate the level of discourse.
I have to remind myself how blind I once was. I was never as indoctrinated as she was, but I, in the past, have made some of the arguments she makes with me. That's also, I think, part of why it's so frustrating. Sometimes it feels like I'm arguing with my past self, and it's difficult not to get angry at that person because I'm so angry that I didn't see through the lies sooner. It's really difficult to keep from taking it out on her, but being aware of the source of much of that anger helps me to keep it under control. Venting here and to a friend or two helps too.
Keep trying and it will get better one way or another. I don't pray to Jesus much these days, but I'm sending lots of good vibes your way for whatever that's worth. So many have been right where you (we) are and beaten the cult, so it is possible and there is reason to remain hopeful.
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Want to share your thoughts on JWs?
by punkofnice inwell, it's been a long while since i last visited here.
i've been doing this and that...you know....lugubrious life and all.. i am interested in collating views from all types of people about jws, albeit non jws, ex jws....anyone associated with jws who wants to share their viewpoint.
later on i'd like to self publish these collected interviews but cannot offer any money as the project is more about giving people an opportunity to speak, help, whatever, rather than make a best seller.
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OneEyedJoe
I'll play. Not sure what you mean by gathering unbiased opinions. On a topic like that, I'm pretty sure that's roughly impossible. I suppose you could get an unbiased opinion from someone that's never encountered JWs, but that'd be worthless.
JW Interview.
- Name/Pseudonym: OneEyedJoe
- Gender: M
- Country: USA
- Were/are you a JW? I was a JW, but no longer consider myself to be one.
- How were/are you associated with JWs
Born in
- How long were you a JW? (If applicable) 28 years.
- What drew you to the JWs? My parents required it.
- What do/did you enjoy about being a JW? The only thing I can say I truly enjoyed was when I was young (~8-15) I enjoyed feeling as if I knew more about the bible than the adults I would talk to in the ministry.
- What is your best/fondest memory? I don't have any fond memories of being a JW, but I do have a few good memories with JW friends.
- What is your funniest memory? When a half-wit was invited to give the closing prayer for the mid-week meeting and at one point said "we're sorry for all the shit...er..stuff that we do wrong..." Apparently one of the two elderly sisters sitting directly behind me didn't hear what had been said and asked the other for clarification. It was pretty funny hearing an 80+ year old woman say in the most timid voice possible "he said shit"
- If alive in 1975 as a JW, do you remember it? What are you memories as a JW? Wasn't alive then.
- Can you think of anything positive or good to say about the watchtower organisation? There's nothing positive about the organization itself. Individual JWs can be quite good people in spite of this, though.
- Do you believe the JWs have the ‘truth’? Absolutely not
- Would you recommend being a JW and why do you answer thus? I would recommend strongly against becoming a JW. This is not a religion as such, it is a cult that offers no benefit that cannot be found elsewhere in a much healthier way. It is a system designed to put people in a mental prison and enslave them to a corporation run by what must either be half-wits or completely morally bankrupt men.
- Please tell us what you want us to know about being a JW. It's a harmful cult that has cost more lives than heaven's gate, jonestown, and the branch davidians combined.
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Being lied to by parents
by What is Truth? ini mean pretty much all parents lie to their children at some point about something and usually it was to protect them or just wasn't something important and it normally doesn't affect the relationship between them and their child.
but how does a person reconcile and recover their appreciation for their parents after finding out almost everything they taught them was an evil lie?
i don't mean going back to the same relationship as i know that is gone, especially if the parents are still deceived.
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OneEyedJoe
As others have said, in most cases when parents raise their kids in a cult, they're just doing the best they know how to do. It just happened that they were victims themselves.
The only thing I hold against my father for my cult indoctrination was the way he manipulated me into getting baptized. What he did couldn't be excused even by JW rules since I wasn't driven to do it by love for Jehovah but by his manipulation. I can't imagine that such a baptism would be considered as being enough for forgiveness of sins and entry into paradise.
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2015 Regional Conventions Baptisms
by Gayle insince this is the first weekend of rcs, anyone going that can give estimates of how many are getting baptized, how many appeared about that were jw youth, and what attendance figure is at these rcs?.
i know u.s. baptisms are declining.
can any keep a running report?
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OneEyedJoe
I would bet that a large portion of the US baptisms last year were because of the international conventions. Anyone holding off might've seen it as an opportunity that they would later regret missing out on, and parents no doubt used it to manipulate their kids into joining up. They'd get to walk on the field where their favorite football players played, they'd get to brag about being dunked at an IC, etc. It seemed significant.
This year I expect we'll be right back on the trend line, if not a slight correction below it.
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Assembly today, Survival Tips and Recommendations Please!
by Blackfalcon98 inso there's an indoctrination session tomorrow......any tips for getting through with my sanity intact?
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OneEyedJoe
Whiskey in a flask?
I always spent as much time as possible out of the seats and surfing the net or reading ebooks.
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Get behind me...ERM Satan!
by username inok random thought just popped in my mind!.
if satan was cast down from heaven in 1914 how did he tempt jesus almost 2000 years previously?
surely jeeeeehovah wouldn't have let the evil one reside in heaven for so long?
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OneEyedJoe
Not sure what you're asking - are you saying why did god let satan hang out in heaven for so long after being a dick to Jesus, or are you asking how he was able to be a dick to jesus if he was in heaven?
On the first one - I suppose the answer is the same as why it's taken 6000 years to demonstrate that god's rulership is the only way. Pretty sure that should only take like 2-3 (non-overlapping) generations to be sufficiently proven. I guess JWs would fall back on the 1000 years is as a day to god nonsense.
For the second - the JW doctrine is that until 1914 satan had free reign to travel between heaven and earth, but after he's confined to the earth. So before he'd go up to god and taunt him and stuff and then he'd come down to earth and dick around with people and cause tsunamis and such, then back to heaven, etc.
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help catagorize my wife: I truely believe she suffers from cognitive dissonance and other things this stupid cult causes.
by goingthruthemotions ini find it hard sometimes to get a good idea has to how to communicate with my wife when it come to this stupid cult.. she is born in and stopped attending for many years and got baptized later in life.
i truely believe she suffers from cognitive dissonance and other things this stupid cult causes.. here is a breakdown of what i gather to be where she is mentally.. * she calls the borg her faith.
here are actions that she does that go against her thoughts:.
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OneEyedJoe
It sounds like your wife has some similarity to mine, and I think the root of it may be that the cult has systematically destroyed their self-confidence. They have no faith in themselves to make the right decision, so they put it on their parents or the elders to decide for them - and they'll always pick the cult 100% of the time.
When I showed my wife the misquotes/lies in the creation book, her response was basically "I just must not be understanding this right." It's impossible in her mind that they could be lying, so anything that she sees that could be interpreted as a lie is her misunderstanding it.
What I'm trying to do (and hopefully you'll have more luck than I have so far) is push her towards non-cult things that she can find fulfillment in. When people are able to do something rewarding and express themselves and see it turn out well, they naturally gain confidence that will spill over into other areas of life. There's also the side-benefit of having interests outside the cult that can replace cult activities.
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No mention of DF in new brochure?
by thedepressedsoul ini went on my tablet today and clicked "yes" that i attended the convention (they probably tracked my ip and two elders will show up on my door step).
i scanned through the new brochure on bringing those who have left back.
i noticed that not once they mentioned anyone who was df!
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OneEyedJoe
Remember there is another group of people we don't see on this website, mentally in but physically out. I think this is for them. as already mentioned once someone is mentally out, this drivel won't sway them.
What I wonder, though, is whether or not this will actually have any impact on them. From what I've seen these folks essentially never come back for good. Sometimes they'll come back for a short time but usually they're out again after a month and you don't see them for a few years. This is in spite of all efforts by family and friends to "encourage" them. Even if some stupid brochure gets them to come back to a meeting a few times, they're not going to stay long. They're still mentally trapped, but they know enough to realize that they're happier when they're not going. The only cases where I've seen someone who was once inactive come back and really embrace it has been after a death in the family, but even then it's about 50/50 (at best) whether they stayed for the long-term.
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No mention of DF in new brochure?
by thedepressedsoul ini went on my tablet today and clicked "yes" that i attended the convention (they probably tracked my ip and two elders will show up on my door step).
i scanned through the new brochure on bringing those who have left back.
i noticed that not once they mentioned anyone who was df!
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OneEyedJoe
I don't know, I think not mentioning disfellowshipped ones will just reinforce in the r&f's mind that being irregular is leaving Jehovah. It might serve to tighten the noose to those so susceptible.
I'm thinking along these lines. I haven't read it yet, but my feeling is that this brochure is primarily to harden active JWs, not to actually get anyone back. They know that in most cases if someone becomes inactive, trying to get them back will be fruitless (or at best, temporary) unless there's some major life event and in that case they're probably fairly likely to come back on their own (this is all assuming that they're still indoctrinated).
Sure, this might pull a few more poor souls back into the cult (but only if they never truly escaped) but the primary purpose is the effect it will have on those who are active. For any with inactive family it will make them think "the GB is so loving that they know how difficult this is and they're trying to help." It will also reinforce that any inactive ones have "left Jehovah" not a man-made organization, thus helping to harden the R/F's view that they're on the moral high-ground and are unassailable - essentially an indirect ad hominem argument against anything that an inactive person might say about why they left. For JWs that know some inactive ones but aren't close to them, this will only serve to increase their feelings of superiority and make them want to go on and on about Jehovah and the cult anytime they happen to bump into them - which will likely be effective in alienating any who are mentally out so that they think "why bother" instead of trying to help wake up an active JW.
Like I said, I haven't read the brochure so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing there's also a few "examples" of why someone might've left - yes? These are there to further reinforce the idea that there is no valid reason to leave - the examples will probably be things like materialism, fornication, the anxieties of life, depression, a perceived (never real!) injustice that they've suffered, etc. This will cause the readers to look back over past interactions with the inactive person they're considering and re-interpret them through this lens. Did you buy a new car a little while after you left? You're materialistic and probably a workaholic - you're just too selfish to give time to Jehovah. Did you claim depression during your fade? You've become bogged down by the anxieties of life and not putting enough trust in Jehovah. Did you get reproved/DF'd before leaving with no attempt to come back? You feel like Jehovah's attempts to help you were unjust and you are therefore "puffed up with pride" and won't come back. etc. etc. The human brain is amazing at fitting things to patterns (even when they're not there) and when they list reasons why someone might leave the brain's inclination is to automatically make their observations fit the pattern. Sort of a retro-active confirmation bias.
To me this seems more like damage control than any real effort to draw anyone back. Threre's a complex set of emotions that an active JW goes through when someone close to them leaves. There's saddness, guilt, confusion, etc. and in that the mind will often wander - this gets out in front of anyone's mind wandering to things like "what if they have a valid reason?" or "what if they left because they know something about xxx" where xxx is a doubt that they have themselves. Putting the R/F on the moral high-ground (in their minds) will harden their resolve to stay.