I thought this was really well done. It might've been good to add a little more about how they control members, but obviously there's only so much time for the episode. I think this is the first thing I've seen on JWs in the media where they I didn't catch minor mistakes that'd turn off normal JWs... I'm not sure if that means it was especially well done (I think so) or that I've just been out long enough that I'm not so sensitive to mistakes. In any event, it's wonderful to know that, at the very least, lots of non JWs are now inoculated against this cult.
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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45
A&E - Cults and Extreme Belief - Jehovah's Witnesses
by Incognito ini haven't seen this posted.. tuesday may 29, 2018 @ 10pm (new york time zone).
cults and extreme belief - jehovah's witnesses.
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Random Musing of an ex-JW between a rock and a hard place.
by StarTrekAngel inmany of you may recall pass postings of mine where i mentioned my plans of moving away from my current neighborhood.
mainly because my office got moved and now my commute is about one hour each way.
my employer is pretty flexible so showing up on time, for now, is not an issue.
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OneEyedJoe
I'm sorry you're put in such a difficult situation. You're clearly a very generous and giving person, trying to take care of your mother-in-law as you have been and are endeavoring to continue doing. It's terrible that she's trying to take advantage of that altruism to manipulate you even further. Honestly, though, she's an adult and she ought to be well acquainted with the concept of living with the consequences of her actions. If she should decide not to move with you, then that in no way obligates you to provide her alternate housing, especially when doing so would be a large burden on your finances. You've given her a generous offer and she's spat in your face and asked for more. You're not required to take care of her, and if she doesn't want your generosity unless it's on her unreasonable terms, then she should have to live with the consequences.
Try and remind yourself regularly that not everything in the world is your responsibility. A lot of people see problems and feel that if they don't solve them, no one will - even if those problems aren't really theirs to solve. Just like when parents are too quick to solve the problems of their child, it results in over-dependence on the parent, the same can happen in any relationship. It often happens that children supersede their parent's maturity and responsibility, and when the children feel an obligation to ensure their parents' lives don't go awry, the relationship can invert and the child ends up parenting the parent...it sounds like that's what's happened here. Just like a good parent ensures that children learn to solve their own problems and take responsibility for their mistakes, your mother-in-law is unlikely to ever stop relying on you (and still manipulating you) until you force her to face the consequences of her actions. So, my best advice to you would be to free yourself from feeling obligated to anyone's unreasonable demands.
I definitely understand how you're feeling with regard to the cult being inescapable. I remember at one point when I was going through the process of trying to get an agreement from my exwife to finalize the divorce, she forced me to jump through several cult hoops and in that moment it felt like such a setback - I'd made so much progress removing myself from the cult but it was still controlling my life. But I promise you, you can get completely free. Unfortunately, though, that might just require finally letting go of the manipulative and abusive people in your life that seek to control you and take advantage of you.
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The emotionally manipulative techniques JW families use.
by stuckinarut2 ini am really disturbed by some methods that jw family members try and use to emotionally manipulate us back into the organization.. one of our fellow posters here has had a family member send several photos of them as a child either out witnessing, and at an assembly.. no words - just those pictures.. it seems such an infantile and manipulative technique to employ?!.
do they think that we will all simply ignore the logical and factual reasons we no longer attend, just because we see some sentimental picture?
do they not see that this actually may reinforce our understanding that we were raised as children in a high-control religious group where we had to please our parents.
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OneEyedJoe
Haha well I'm glad my inane ramblings could be of use to someone.
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The emotionally manipulative techniques JW families use.
by stuckinarut2 ini am really disturbed by some methods that jw family members try and use to emotionally manipulate us back into the organization.. one of our fellow posters here has had a family member send several photos of them as a child either out witnessing, and at an assembly.. no words - just those pictures.. it seems such an infantile and manipulative technique to employ?!.
do they think that we will all simply ignore the logical and factual reasons we no longer attend, just because we see some sentimental picture?
do they not see that this actually may reinforce our understanding that we were raised as children in a high-control religious group where we had to please our parents.
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OneEyedJoe
While the emotional manipulation that we become subjected to upon leaving is, obviously, in large part due to explicit encouragement of manipulative tactics from the cult (i.e. shunning, telling people "we miss you" all the time, only calling when there's some special meeting we're supposed to go to, etc) I suspect that another significant component is just the level of emotional immaturity that the cult fosters in people in order to control them. Things like the culture of "stumbling" teaches people to blame others for their emotions - if someone does something that's not prohibited and you have a negative emotional response, they've stumbled you. Their advice for dealing with strong emotions is also terrible - essentially JWs are told to push their emotions aside and wait for god to fix it. So, instead of learning to take responsibility for their emotions and face/address them head-on, a culture of hiding their own emotions from themselves and blaming others for any negative feelings arises.
All this comes into full swing when they deal with people that have left. They refuse to acknowledge that they're sad because they're being artificially restricted from seeing someone and take responsibility for their own choices and feelings - instead they feel a bad feeling and blame the supposed proximate cause (which, by habit, is another person) and that person becomes labeled as bad. Then, when they engage in the instinct to seek empathy, they're so out of touch with their emotions that they can't tell you how they're feeling and take responsibility for it - instead they simply try to make you feel how their feeling via emotionally manipulative letters, phone calls, emails, etc. And because they've already labeled you as 'bad' and 'guilty' they'll refuse to acknowledge their immature behavior even if it's clearly pointed out to them because they're on "god's side" so they can't possibly be even partially wrong in the situation.
As I'm getting out more into the world and interacting with a range of new people, I've run into some other sorts of very controlling people outside of the JW cult - the more exposure to this sort of thing I get, the easier it is to see how a controlling cult-like system could spring up completely unintentionally out of a combination of emotional immaturity, insecurity and veiled narcissism. Some people just learn subconsciously that they can get people to do what they want that way, and don't even realize they're doing it. With JWs it's explicitly trained into them, but that doesn't mean they're any more aware of what they're doing.
So, while I refuse to have people in my life that are going to treat me in such manipulative ways, more than anything I feel sorry for these people that are floating through life with the perception that their emotional state is completely out of their control - being blown about by the winds of the world around them. We're all quite lucky to have escaped that.
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Banned words in the organization
by Addison0998 ini was talking to my sister in law the other day about death, and i mentioned something about the afterlife, i don’t remember what i said but it was nothing shocking .
but she squealed, “we don’t believe in the afterlife!
!” and i reasoned, well we kinda do...life after death is the after life..and she just insisted no no it’s not the same thing.
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OneEyedJoe
Hell my ex-wife once scolded me for saying "god" too many times in a conversation. "Why do you keep saying 'god?' His name is Jehovah!"
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Leah Remini to tackle JWs in new special
by betterdaze inthe star has a previous first-look production deal with the network to produce unscripted series following the success of her emmy-winning show “leah remini: scientology and the aftermath.” according to the hollywood reporter, remini will produce a special for the network during the break following season 3 of the acclaimed docuseries.. it notes that jehovah’s witnesses, while based on biblical teachings, have come under fire over the years for similar practices to the church remini left years ago.
for example, practices of ousting or shunning members who have dissenting views, a blanket refusal to participate in politics and government as well as not celebrating christmas or birthdays are all things that the special will reportedly cover.
additionally, the religion has predicted the literal end of the world several times, obviously to no avail.. .
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OneEyedJoe
In my morning haze I read the title and the image of Leah Remini jumping out of some bushes to tackle JWs while they're writing down not-at-homes came to mind. Now I'm not sure which show I want her to make.
It's lovely all the press JWs are getting lately between this and the upcoming "Cults and Extreme Belief" documentary. I hope they all manage to do a good job and aren't full of minor mistakes that JWs will seize upon.
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Cults and extreme belief
by Butyoucanneverleave ina&e has a new show this season called cults and extreme belief.
the second episode will air on 5/29 at 9:00 pm and jehovah's witnesses will be featured.
hopefully they do a good job exposing them for what they really are.
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OneEyedJoe
I looked on their website and they name lots of cults but not the JWs. I hope they show up...The first episode is May 28 and is on the group Nxivm. That is the group that came out in the last few weeks where celebrities and others were held as sex slaves for a nutty guru.
As mentioned in the OP - the second episode airs 5/29 and is about JWs.
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Consequences for having a non religious wedding ceraminy?
by Addison0998 inhey i was wondering if maybe someone who is an ex elder or who knows a lot about these things could help me.
my dad is an elder but i need to be cautious with questions i ask.
now that i’ve been woken up from my brainwashed love of this corrupt corporation and from my belief in the bible, and my fiancé is starting to wake up as well, i really don’t want to have the sexist, overused, impersonal talk outline used for my wedding ceremony by some elder who is trying to show off his talk giving skills.
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OneEyedJoe
It's none of my business but I would urge you to put off the wedding until your fiance is FULLY awake at the very least. Might be good to wait until you're out of the cult and stable. Leaving the cult can lead to people changing in unexpected ways as they settle into their authentic selves. I wouldn't marry someone that hasn't been allowed to be themselves yet.
I wish you the best no matter what you decide.
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Official statement: "Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Scripturally Based Position on Child Protection"
by neat blue dog ini'm not sure if this was mentioned yet, but at this week's meeting they announced (or will announce for those who haven't had theirs yet) the availability of a new official statement on child abuse that can be downloaded in the legal section of jwdotorg.
(funny it's in the legal section, it just shows their mentality and how this is really damage control.
) here's the link:.
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OneEyedJoe
Some additional thoughts:
in point 3:
The elders do not shield any perpetrator of child abuse from the authorities.
Sure, they take no positive action to shield abusers, but isn't the very fact that they consult the branch office to find out if they're legally required to report the abuser (instead of, you know, just reporting the abuser...) to authorities a form of shielding the abuser? They'll first shield the organization from potential legal problems by complying with law, but if that's not an issue, then they shield the abuser by refusing to report them. All this statement is really saying is that if the authorities subpoena their records about an abuser they'll provide them. Oh, wait, no they won't even do that - they'll fight a legal battle to prevent providing their records on abusers to the point of paying millions of dollars of donated money to avoid it. I guess really all this is saying is that if police bust into a kingdom hall to arrest the abuser, they won't try to stop them.
Point 4:
In all cases, victims and their parents have the right to report an accusation of child abuse to the authorities. Therefore, victims, their parents, or anyone else who reports such an accusation to the elders are clearly informed by the elders that they have the right to report the matter to the authorities. Elders do not criticize anyone who chooses to make such a report
Riiiiiiight. I'll believe that when I see it. Even if I'd grant that elders wouldn't criticize someone that reports child abuse, the culture of not reporting anything to the authorities when legal troubles arise between JWs is so strong that it's virtually guaranteed that someone (probably many) in the congregation will criticize the reporter of abuse, and they will very likely be somewhat ostracized as a result. To make matters worse, this fact is absolutely present in the mind of anyone that's been a JW for any length of time, which makes it less likely that abuse will be reported. And just like their claim that they don't shield abusers, this statement is likely only true if interpreted very narrowly. Maybe elders won't "discourage" reporting the abuse, and maybe they won't "criticize" someone that does, but it's been well documented that they will generally "provide a warning" that reporting abuse could result in them being brought before a JC on charges of slander.
in point 5:
If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the other parent.
Let's just think for a moment about why a child might be reporting one of their parents' abuse to the elders. Could it be that 1) they already told their other parent and were met with skepticism, punishment, or an ineffective attempt to end the abuse or 2) that they fear telling the parent will result in option 1? In either of those two cases, which are unfortunately all too common in the world at large (and I suspect even more common in situations where people believe themselves and the abuser to be among the 0.1% most virtuous people in the world, as is the case with JWs) it seems that the action to take should be to first inform the authorities, then the other parent.
Their policy of informing the other parent of the abuse reminds me of their policy to send replies to letters from individuals to their elders. This reflects the authoritarian, pyramid-shaped, power structure that they're all to eager to reinforce because it's the very core of how the cult (indeed any cult) is run and sustained.
Elsewhere in point 5:
Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse
Isn't it just so heartening to know that it will be one or more elders, men completely uneducated in the fields of social services, child protection, or criminal psychology will be the ones to make the determination of whether a minor is still in danger from the accused abuser. Why would you ever want impartial authorities to make that decision? (sarcasm)
in point 8:
Victims and their families may decide to consult a mental-health professional. This is a personal decision.
Again, while this is technically true, the culture in JW-land is explicitly opposed to seeking help from mental-health professionals. The reason for this goes directly to statements in their own literature that comes from the top. So while it's "a personal decision" it's one that has been preemptively explicitly discouraged. They presume that it's acceptable that they don't discourage it in connection with their policy on child abuse, but considering the fact that they explicitly discourage it for any problem (preferring to recommend, instead, that people rectify the problem with prayer and deeper involvement in the cult) this should not exonerate them in the slightest.
Beginning of point 9:
Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the alleged abuser.
This represents a policy change and considering the fact that there was a recent lawsuit over this very behavior, this point would be more honest if it started with the words "Going forward" or "In the future" but of course they are loathe to admit (especially in view of their adherents) that they've ever made a mistake and therefore present it as if this has never happened in the past.
In point 10:
A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
What they fail to mention is that in many (perhaps most) cases they will fail to establish someone as being an abuser with sufficient evidence for them to actually take any action. Which leads to:
Point 11:
If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.
So when someone is determined by 3 janitors (with absolutely no experience in the field of criminal psychology) to be "repentant" they place primary trust in that person's self-monitoring of their own activities? The naivety of this policy is incomprehensible. Then they state that they will inform parents in the congregation to keep their kids away from this abuser - again, when reading this it seems to be necessary to keep in mind that any point that they make should be taken as narrowly as possible, and it appears to be pretty reliable to assume that any point that they fail to make is indeed false. Viewing the statement that they'll inform parents in that light, one can assume with reasonable confidence that they won't inform the congregation at large. So, what about babysitters, aunts and uncles or grandparents. If the parents decide to take a weekend vacation and the grandparents take the kids to the meeting, will they remember to pass along a list of all the abusers in the congregation to the grandparents? Either way, it's not the elders' problem! They informed the parents and told the abuser to stop abusing kids so their hands are clean. (sarcasm)
Furthermore what this point fails to explicitly say (and thus we can assume with high probability that it is not the case), following on from point 10, is that they will inform parents in the congregation of an accusation of abuse that they could not establish with enough evidence (i.e. they didn't confess and there weren't 2 witnesses, both wildly unlikely scenarios) to actually take action by the cult's rules. This would include cases where the case was reported to the authorities and the person was convicted in criminal court of the crime. So if someone manages to escape a judicial hearing because only one victim reported them and they didn't confess and then is convicted, serves their time, and returns to the congregation the elders won't mention to anyone that this person is a known child abuser.
Perhaps the saddest thing in all of this is that even with the above glaring flaws, this policy document actually represents an improvement over the previous status quo. It remains to be seen if some of these improvements are actually put into practice or if elders will stick to their old habits.
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Atheists - How Did You Become An Atheist After Waking Up?
by pale.emperor ini consider myself an atheist.
and right now i'm reading a lot on atheism in general (books written to answer creationists).. i'd be interested in knowing how you became an atheist after leaving the jws and how long did it take?
was it instant or did your belief in a deity gradually decline?.
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OneEyedJoe
I had basically primed myself to realize there were no gods well before I woke up. After observing the many failures in reasoning that people used to justify belief in god combined with the pervasive hypocrisy in religion and its being used cynically as a means for control and monetary gain, I started thinking to myself "if I weren't a JW, I'd surely be an atheist" starting sometime in college. Of course we all know that it's easier to be an atheist with respect to someone else's religion, and unfortunately it took many years and an understanding of cult mind control to see clearly enough that I was in a cult to be comfortable lighting the match that would burn down my former life entirely. But once I knew JWs were a cult, I knew god was universally a delusion.
In some ways I think this is a great way to go about things - I'd already worked out a lot of the things that can be jarring in the transition, and I'd done it without actually having to commit myself to atheism. I already understood a lot about cosmology, so I didn't get hung up on silly "first cause" arguments. I'd pondered morality without the appeal to a higher authority, so I wasn't shocked by nihilistic despair. I would've liked if the process had gone a bit more quickly, though.
I'm definitely happier now - not having to constantly lie to myself in order to maintain internal consistency of thought is an underrated luxury.