Posts by OneEyedJoe

26

Evolution is just a theory

by venting in

this ticks me off!

last sundays watchtower talked about how organised the heavens are.

how it works so acuratley.

OneEyedJoe

Yeah, there were some classic comments last sunday. One I always like was:

When you look at the stars and galaxies and the orbits of the planets, you can clearly see that a god of oganization created it. Scientists say that everything came about from an explosion in the "big bang" (said with a very snide tone) but what do you get from an explosion? Chaos, not order.

That one had me pretty pissed off, since that's a complete misunderstanding of what the big bang is. Also, it's not really difficult to demonstrate the concept that gravity would naturally cause things to coalesce into something resembling an equilibrium after a while. As the OP mentioned, asteroid collisions, aptly demonstrate that things aren't all that ordered. Whats more, it's very likely that early planets are often sent crashing into their stars. Hell, even galaxies collide rather frequently, and our own galaxy is due for a collision with andromeda in about 4 billion years. Not so ordered afterall.

Another great moment was when one elder accidentially disproved the story of the flood: He said "what I never understood was what they did with all the insects - there's millions of species of insects and they don't interbreed...they couldn't possibly have all fit on the ark" It's so sad, this elder is relatively clever (another of his favorite comments is that he wants to ask god what was up with them dinosaurs) and seems to see the holes in the bible and the religion but he is so absolutely loyal to the organization that it's disgusting.

As for the "evolution is just a theory" argument, my counterpoint is that it is "just" a theory in exactly the same way that gravity is just a theory. We don't fully understand the mechanisms behind gravity, and there are many different explanations of how gravity might work (and physicists often get into rather impassioned debates about which must be the best explanation). Yet, we don't go around arguing that gravity never happened, because we can see the evidence everywhere. Just like there's evidence for evolution everywhere.

The parallel with gravity also works when creationists make use of the inflation of conflict logical falacy (saying, even the experts don't agree on how evolution works, so why should I believe it?). Experts don't agree on how gravity works, but we all believe in it. The only difference between evolution and gravity is that the idea of gravity has been around longer, and the evidence for it takes less effort to see. Oh, and it doesn't directly disprove the bible (though it does indirectly disprove many accounts in the bible)

17

I know this is never going to happen ....however , what if ...?

by smiddy in

jw
friends

can you imagine what this world would be like today , with 7 billion people , if their were never , ever a religous concept in anybodys mind ?.

wouldnt this world be such a better place to be in if it was devoid of all religion ?.

if religion never existed from the time man/woman first walked the earth until now how do you see , pros or cons , how humakind would fare today.. as i said in my o.p.

OneEyedJoe

Well, for one thing the dark ages probably wouldn't have happened, so scientific discovery would've had about 1000 years extra to develop, so by now we'd have technology that would be unimaginable for us today. But on the other hand, we could easily have been stuck as a bunch of small tribes without religion.

I think it just depends on what was used to fill the void that religion currently fills. This is an interesting concept to ponder, since religion has obviously caused many attrocities, but the good that it does is often diffused. Without religion it would likely have taken civilization longer to organize itself, and organization on some level is neccessary for economic efficiency. Religion also makes for a convenient way to explain morals without requiring everyone to have a degree in sociology. To people with little education, it's difficult to connect having personal morals to positive advancement of society since humans tend to be myopic and selfish, especially in poor economic conditions. Instead of trying to explain the benefit to society that an individual can have by living honestly, it's easier to just say "God sees everything and will burn you in hell if you step out of line."

As an atheist I'm reluctant to admit it, but it's entirely possible that the concept of god has a place in a developing society. Without the immediate trust and comonality that religion can provide two strangers, it would likely have been very difficult to form societies larger than a small tribe where everyone knows everyone else. It may just be that a society has to progress from small tribal groups, to large religious groups, before it can become a global atheist (but moral) society. Sometimes it's tempting to skip the painful middle steps, but it may have been necessary in order to become organized on a sufficient scale.

16

Thinking it through and not liking the result.

by donny in

today at work a co-worker of mine and i were having lunch at a nearby establishment.

he is what you would call a c&e christian in that he basically attends church only for the christmas and easter services, though he definitely says he believes in god.. he said that he just recently caught an episode of a crime/forensic show that featured a man from new jersey named john list who was also known locally as the "bogeyman of westfield.

" list became infamous for murdering his entire family consisting of his wife, three children and his mother on november 9, 1971. see below link for more data.. on the tv show the narrator commented there were a few reasons why he did it.

OneEyedJoe

Just like you see in all man-made law codes, there are always loopholes that can result in people getting away with some pretty messed up stuff. It just goes to show that there's no way that God is behind such a flawed belief system. When the most selfless act there could be is killing children and resigning to your (possible) eternal fate in hell, you really have to re-evaluate your beliefs.

69

Said from the platform: "You are not surviving Armaggedon if you are spiritually weak"

by Daniel1555 in

today i was at the meeting (i go there about once a month now).

in the service meeting they had a part where they interviewed the secretary of the congregation.. so one question was: "why are the service reports so important?".

our secretary explained that the reports are important, because the elders can see, who is spiritually weak.

OneEyedJoe

My theory is that the WTS is playing a game of good-cop, bad-cop. Or current CO has given a couple talks, over a few visits, in which the gist was that we should just do or best, and even of that's not much, even the most spiritually weak JW is way better of than a worldly person. It's not just pure guilt that keeps people in line, it's the emotional rollercoaster of guilt then relief then guilt then relief that keeps people in. When you consistently send mixed messages, people hear the ones that they need to hear.

151

If you don't believe in God where do you get the strength to cope?

by Miss.Fit in

jw
friends

i know there are some here that are going through some tough times.

some of you do not believe in god.

some are not sure.. i was told recently by a friend to pray to god for help and he would comfort me.. my first impulse is to pray.

OneEyedJoe

Prayer vs meditation is an interesting topic.

When someone prays, the brain scans seem to indicate similar activity to someone in conversation, while an atheist in mediation seems more like someone thinking intently. I'm not certain what the distinction is in practice, but it stands to reason that there is a significant psychological effect to earnestly believing that there's someone listening to your prayers. For me, the way to replicate prayer is meditation plus practicing trust in myself that whatever happens, it'll be OK. Once you let go and stop blaming yourself for things that are out of your control, you can find the same calm as a theist has when trusting that god is handling things for them. Sure, it takes a little more conscious effort than blind faith, but I think that the freedom of mind and intellectual honesty that comes from my atheism is worth the extra effort.

22

HAS ANYONE SEEN.......

by DATA-DOG in

a super bat-shit crazy invitation to pioneer in august??

i stumbled upon something the other day, but i have been hesitant to post it.

i am afraid that it could be a local thing and thereby traced back to me.

OneEyedJoe

Nothing here, but I've missed quite a few meetings lately, and left immediately after the prayer at the ones I've made, so I could've missed it.

151

If you don't believe in God where do you get the strength to cope?

by Miss.Fit in

jw
friends

i know there are some here that are going through some tough times.

some of you do not believe in god.

some are not sure.. i was told recently by a friend to pray to god for help and he would comfort me.. my first impulse is to pray.

OneEyedJoe

I haven't bothered to read the whole thread, so maybe this has been said already, but here goes:

You say you're learning to rely on yourself, but that's not really true. You're learning that you always have relied on yourself. You've gotten yourself this far without help, and you'll keep going just fine.

Sometimes things are difficult, and it's nice to believe that you've put matters into the hands of a more powerful being, but really all you've been doing before is accepting that there are things in life that you can't change and moving on. You can certainly still do that, you'll just be conscious that that's what you're doing. Becoming atheist shouldn't change how well you're able to cope with difficulties, since being theist never actually helped you either - you just didn't worry about it as much.

52

Stagnant JW growth at international convention

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

so at the international convention 235 were baptized.

the attendance was 34k.

that's resents less than 1% its about .6%.

OneEyedJoe

LHG - Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories from some who'd gone to serve in mexico, and they said that they continually got pointers on how to determine if people were just trying to learn english. They mentioned that some would request literature in both english and spanish in order to try to learn english by comparing them. Now that I'm mentally out, I'm realizing that the org wasn't so concerned with efficiently recruiting more members as they are with the fact that these people were consuming more literature, and probably not paying anything.

52

Stagnant JW growth at international convention

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

so at the international convention 235 were baptized.

the attendance was 34k.

that's resents less than 1% its about .6%.

OneEyedJoe

ADCMS: I've never thought about it that way, but you're spot on.

At our convention, there was a 6 or 7 yr old baptized, and my 'in' wife even seemed quite shocked. The norm used to be 11-14 for born-ins, and now it does seem to be edging downward a bit.

52

Stagnant JW growth at international convention

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

so at the international convention 235 were baptized.

the attendance was 34k.

that's resents less than 1% its about .6%.

OneEyedJoe

Just remembered something I was going to include earlier, on the topic of the generation stuff. For one thing, I do remember even in my childhood the 2034 date being suggested (but, of course, the end couldn't possibly be that far off) based on the parallel with noah. I would not be in the least surprised if they started subtly pushing 2034 as the date of the end in about 10-12 years. This seems especially likely, since by that time the GB will probably be made up of several that weren't around (or aware) in 1975, so the lessons of the past outcomes of date setting will be mostly forgotten.

As for the change from the 1995 and 2008 'generation' teachings, I'd guess that it was a (failed) attempt to reenergize the R/F. based on the 1995 and 2008 versions, the end could potentially be another thousands of years off (especially with the 2008 flavor, since in that version the "generation" was already nearly 2000 years old). There's only two explanations for the change. Either they're intentionally trying to see what they can get away with (or as has been suggested here, trying to get rid of fence-sitters) or they're trying to recapture the urgency that the organization had pre 1995.