Posts by opusdei1972

30

Original Sin / Salvation without a literal Adam and Eve?

by Coded Logic in

something i've never understood is if adam and eve are just metaphorical where did "original sin" come from.

and, if there was no original sin, what is the value of jesus sacrifice?.

i know a lot of christians believe in evolution but i've never understood how such a belief is structured.

opusdei1972

I did not say that Augustine believed that the seven days were literal. However, he said on Adam and Eve, as I quoted before:

These and similar allegorical interpretations may be suitably put upon Paradise without giving offence to any one, provided we believe the truth of the story as a faithful record of historical fact."(Augustine, City of God, Book XIII.XXI )

Now Let's read Irenaeus:

But, in order that the man should not entertain thoughts of grandeur nor be exalted, as if he had no Lord, and, because of the authority given to the man and the boldness towards God his creator, sin, passing beyond his own measure, and adopt an attitude of self-conceited arrogance against God, a law was given to him from God, that he might know that he had as lord the Lord of all. And he placed certain limits upon him, so that, if he should keep the commandment of God, he would remain always as he was, that is, immortal; if, however, he should not keep it, he would become mortal, dissolving into the earth whence his frame was taken. And the commandment was this: ‘You may eat freely from every tree of paradise, but of that tree alone, whence is the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat; for on the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die’ (Gen 2.16-17). (The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, 15)

The above words clearly show that Irenaeus believed in a literal interpretation of the account of Adam and Eve.

10

Merely an expressed opinion ?

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

does that sh*t eating grin and that middlefinger have any message for the friends ?.

*** yb80 pp.

62-63 france ***.

opusdei1972

If you read the Watchtower publications between 1920 and 1924 you will note that it was not a mere expressed opinion. It was a strong campaign to propagate the idea that 1925 would be a God's date:

"Have we more reason, or as much, to believe the kingdom will be established in 1925 than Noah had to believe that there would be a flood? [...]Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. ....As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base its faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." (Question Box, The Watch Tower, April 1, 1923, p. 106)

30

Original Sin / Salvation without a literal Adam and Eve?

by Coded Logic in

something i've never understood is if adam and eve are just metaphorical where did "original sin" come from.

and, if there was no original sin, what is the value of jesus sacrifice?.

i know a lot of christians believe in evolution but i've never understood how such a belief is structured.

opusdei1972

Of course, the Church Fathers did not believe in the same Watchtower's explanation of the meaning of Jesus sacrifice. However, it seems that the majority in the churches of the first centuries did believe in the account of Genesis chapter 3 as historical. Of course, some of the Alexandrian School gave to it an allegorical interpretation, however, Augustine pointed out that the whole account was a historical fact:

"...some allegorize all that concerns Paradise itself, where the first humans, the parents of the human race, are, according to the truth of holy Scripture, recorded to have been; and they understand all its trees and fruit-bearing plants as virtues and habits of life, …as if they had no existence in the external world, but were only so spoken of or related for the sake of spiritual meanings. As if there could not be a real terrestrial Paradise! ...No one, then, denies that Paradise may signify the life of the blessed; its four rivers, the four virtues, prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice; its trees, all useful knowledge; its fruits, the customs of the godly; its tree of life, wisdom herself, the mother of all good; and the tree of the knowledge of good …and evil, the experience of a broken commandment.. .These and similar allegorical interpretations may be suitably put upon Paradise without giving offence to any one, provided we believe the truth of the story as a faithful record of historical fact."(Augustine, City of God, Book XIII.XXI )

So, the early church understood this myth as it were a fact.

30

Original Sin / Salvation without a literal Adam and Eve?

by Coded Logic in

something i've never understood is if adam and eve are just metaphorical where did "original sin" come from.

and, if there was no original sin, what is the value of jesus sacrifice?.

i know a lot of christians believe in evolution but i've never understood how such a belief is structured.

opusdei1972

The Church Father believed that Adam and Eve were historical persons and the first couple of humans. This strongly suggests that Christians of the first century did not take the Genesis account as figurative.

30

Original Sin / Salvation without a literal Adam and Eve?

by Coded Logic in

something i've never understood is if adam and eve are just metaphorical where did "original sin" come from.

and, if there was no original sin, what is the value of jesus sacrifice?.

i know a lot of christians believe in evolution but i've never understood how such a belief is structured.

opusdei1972

If you take seriously Paul's theology on Jesus as the second and the last Adam, you must believe that the Genesis' account of the fall is historically true, otherwise Jesus was a false Adam, inasmuch Adam never existed.

So, if Adam did not exist, there is no original sin, then Jesus' dead does not save anyone, because nobody is dying on account of Adam. Indeed, it makes sense why biblicists need to defend the Genesis account.

9

Biblical clues to what God the Jews worshipped

by Crazyguy in

recently there is a royal bulla that was found in jerusalem, that of the judean king hezekiah on it was two egyptian ankhs and a wings sun disk.

there have been other artifacts found with that of the egyptian scarab beatle which relates to sun worship.

so does the bible give any clues to the god of the jews?.

opusdei1972

Another contradiction in the Bible.

73

Witnesses killed my friend today.

by WasOnceBlind in

today has been a horrible day.

what began as a day of joy finding out that one of my lifelong friends had her baby, turned into a nightmare when her brother called me to let me know she had passed away after birth.

i was in shock and didn't ask how.

opusdei1972

Cofty: I have not the slightest doubt the leadership no longer have faith in their own blood policy. They are murderers.

Yes, th GB is an evil group of killers.

36

Ridiculous statements in this weeks study article

by the truth is mine in

maybe it is just me but when i read this paragraph all i could do is shake my head and wonder how i used to buy into this crap and how people don't wonder what the hell the writers are thinking'.

"imagine what life would be like if god did not have love for mankind.

we merely have to look at the awful history of this world with its human rulerships under its unloving and wrathful god, satan the devil.

opusdei1972

We merely have to look at the awful history of this world with its human rulerships under its unloving and wrathful god, Satan the Devil.

Ok, but, who gave this world to Satan the Devil??? (read Luke 4:6)

96

Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?

by nicolaou in

seems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.

maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.

many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.

opusdei1972

As I said before, if you read the Church Fathers, you will see that the Witnesses are just the same Christian sect of those of the first and second century, with some singularities.

96

Is the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses really an inferior form of Christianity?

by nicolaou in

seems to be quite a few posters recently pulling down the beliefs of jw's as not biblical or truly christian.

maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, i really don't care.. in some important ways though mainstream christians often behave better than jehovah's witnesses; most don't practice shunning or impose lethal medical prohibitions on their members.

many are far more tolerant of the lgbt community and a few even make the awkward attempt to square the fact of evolution with their faith.. please note that i'm saying some, not all.. so i suppose it's fair to say that differing forms of christianity can be better or worse for individuals, families and the wider community.

opusdei1972

If we were living in one of the first centuries, the Watchtower sect would be like those of that time.

Read the Church Fathers and all of them were biblicist and fanatic.

However, currently, most of the orthodox churches have evolved. The majority of the scholars of the Catholic Church admit that the Genesis account is a myth.