Posts by SAHS

52

New member, no longer just reader...

by freemindfade in

jw
friends

so i joined very recently and began posting and commenting without a formal intro.

been reading for a while, decided it was time to jump in.

mentally i am completely cleansed of this thing, but still have to maintain a minimal involvement for spouse and family.

SAHS

Terry makes a lot of sense, and, as usual, his pensive yet poignant sentiments are well-expressed.

What we have been taught – and had pushed on us so relentlessly and for so long – has, in fact, been proven to be nothing more than a lie and a fraud. Now, the WBTS has no doubt had some good intentions, but the bottom line is that truth is truth, and false is false. So, whatever good intentions at least some folks in the WBTS may have had, it nevertheless – regardless of the degree to which they were either just naively mistaken or deliberately dishonest and high-handed – has, in fact, been formulating and promulgating falsehood, often with an underlying self-serving tone. (Their numerous attempts at ascertaining a one-and-only truthful interpretation of the Scriptures have been of the same batting average as someone striking at a piñata wearing a blindfold in a coal mine a mile underground with the lights out.)

There is certainly no reason to be ashamed by daring to question anything. As an old chum of ours by the name of Raymond Franz once said, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and one who would take on the role of claiming to be the sole mouthpiece for Almighty God would be assuming a most awesome responsibility – or at least something to that effect (I don’t have those exact quotations from his books in front of me right now).

Everyone has every right to make enquiries about that which is most relevant and important to life itself and the essence and their very being as a whole person. Keep an open mind, and remember: life is a journey – and it is as uniquely personal as the number of individual people there are.

As Terry closed with in his above post, “Now you stand to become the change in the world you wish to see happen.” Everyone is essentially the master of their own destiny. We are all really just a bunch of carbon, calcium, water, and a very few number of other basic elements (I forget exactly which) having a finite time to live on this earth before those elements again become literally part of the earth itself. So, you have every right to live it well, as you see fit, to the best of your knowledge.

Welcome to the board!

23

i know this has been talked about. but isn't wearing JW.org stuff idol worship

by goingthruthemotions in

jw
friends

so i am getting really frustrated...i see jdub's wearing jw.org items and .

isn't this idol worship.

respond if you like...i just want some .

SAHS

The WT has always been pointing their finger at other religions, most notably Catholics, who make use of images and icons. They’ve been regularly pointing out the material in their Reasoning From the Scriptures book regarding God’s supposed view of images and icons in parts in the Theocratic Ministry School, and how apparently wrong it is. (False religion, don’t you know!)

I know a brother who put decal lettering “YHWH” on the back of his station wagon in the 1980s. Apparently some brothers frown on such chintzy bumper-sticker-religion displays, as did the WT, but, alas, . . . here we are now with all those annoying blue “JW.org” squares on everything. What’s that word again? . . . oh yah, “hypocrisy.” How ridiculous!

There are two of those blue square things on the display sign at our Kingdom Hall, one on each side. They clash with the sign, which is maroon/burgundy-colored. Those blue squares look rather out of place. You can tell that they’re on there “just because.”

“Honesty”: “. . . the indoctrination is so deep that it overwhelms their common sense.”

That’s really about it. In a JW’s eyes, the WT can do no wrong. (That is, unless they happen to be among the growing number who are starting to actually wake up.)

31

Is this proof that the flood was regional?

by silent in

jw
friends

i stumbled across a scripture today.

it's numbers 13:33 "and there we saw the nephilim, the sons of anak, who are from the nephilim, and in comparison we seemed like grasshoppers, both to us and to them.. now if they honestly believed that they saw the nephilim, it would mean that some nephilim would have had to survive the flood or that the hijinks of the fallen angels before the flood, happened again shortly thereafter.

the only other thing i can come up with is that nephilim was some kind of generic word that implied giant proportions, but not necessarily the nephilim.. comments from the more educated appreciated.. silent.

SAHS

I think that the Nephilim of Genesis is really just something fanciful made up to offer an explanation for people with different physical characteristics which sounds more mystical and enchanting than any scientific facts.

There are many examples of mythological legends contrived by different cultures in an attempt to “explain” natural phenomena. As an example: according to Hindu legend, the Ganges River in India was supposed to have been created when the water goddess Ganga flowed from the heavens through the long hair of Siva, and in another Indian creation myth, Prajápati weeps creative tears like the Egyptian sun-god Ra, whose rays are tears from which all things spring.

So, we can see how natural things, such as rivers and the sun, were taught to have supposedly originated from tears of mythological gods. Many other things, such as the moon, stars, comets, mountains, oceans, animals, human life, as well as groups of people sharing certain physical similarities, have been attempted to be explained by numerous types of myths. Mythology, of one sort or another, is a common factor in human culture and seems to satisfy some innate and primal need from an anthropological and psychological perspective.

I believe that what was referred to in the Bible as the “Nephilim” was really nothing more than a variety of people called the “Anakim,” who were considered notably tall and strong, at least relative to the Israelites. Facts no doubt became quite exaggerated and distorted, thus adding fodder to the classic “Nephilim” included in the Noachian flood story.

This is yet another example showing that the correct explanation often tends to be the simplest.

15

An email from a Jw "friend" to me (accusing me of apostasy) a few months back.

by objectivetruth in

jw
friends

i was going through old email and i came across the below email from a former acquaintance of mine who is a jw.

when we were both jw's, we were both pretty liberal in our beliefs.

its quite interesting how cognitive dissonance kicks in, for many & not too much for others.

SAHS

“objectivetruth”: “If someone wants to leave our organization we don't disfellowship them.”

True. They don’t disfellowship them. If someone wants to leave the organization quietly, thus disassociating himself/herself, they just announce from the platform that “[so-and-so] is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” . . . . . . . . which means that they are DISFELLOWSHIPPED! . . . . So, yes, they DO, in fact, disfellowship them. The only difference is how many minutes the judicial (disfellowshipping!) committee is required to meet to reach their verdict (judgment) – with or without the presence of the accused (judged).

The Watchtower Society on its Web site, under “Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Shun Former Members of Their Religion?,” states the following: “Those who were baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses but no longer preach to others, perhaps even drifting away from association with fellow believers, are not shunned. In fact, we reach out to them and try to rekindle their spiritual interest.” (“http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/”) This is misleading because it may naturally lead people to think that the Watchtower doesn’t shun those who simply decide to leave the organization (disassociating from it), but, in fact, it only mentions that those who “no longer preach to others, . . . drifting away” are not shunned.

Now, when the Watchtower tricks people by leading them to believe that they do not shun people who leave the organization, when, in fact, they certainly do, then that is plainly deceitful. Note what Psalm 26:4, 5 says: “I do not associate with deceitful men, and I avoid those who hide what they are. I hate the company of evil men, and I refuse to associate with the wicked.” (RNWT) So, according to that scripture, people shouldn’t be associating with the Watchtower anyway because of their infamously dishonest tactics. So, when people leave (or disassociate) themselves from the Watchtower, they can rightly say that they are just following Psalm 26:4!

28

YOU 'THINK' YOU ARE FREE when you leave the Org. . . but it can be an ILLUSION

by Terry in

jw
friends

did you know there is nothing more insane than being partly indoctrinated and partly free?.

the level of cognitive dissonance is ridiculous!.

i have told this story before, so i'll shorten it to cut to the chase.. in 1987, i was dating a professional psychotherapist with a view to marriage.

SAHS

I suppose the safest approach when citing specific examples relating to religious faith and doctrine is to be sure and always preface it by saying, “some people believe that . . . ,” or “according to the biblical account of . . . , apparently . . . , at least as the story goes,” or even “some religions teach that . . . ,” etc. That way, whomever you’re talking to will be clear that whatever you’re mentioning about whatever biblical or religious account you might be referring to is not something in any way from you or even in agreement with you, but simply a fact about a story or concept which already has been put out there by someone else. For example, whatever you said regarding the “story of the Nephilim,” as long as it was prefaced by something like “according to . . . ,” or “I heard that some people believe that . . . ,” then you should be relatively fine. (As opposed to just starting off with “So, the wicked angels see the daughters of men and . . . ,” blah, blah, as though giving some subtle indication that it’s somehow something you believe in and may even be personally passionate about.)

It’s like when a newspaper article is referring to something to which the editors don’t want to possibly convey any impression that they might be adopting the views or opinions of whatever it is they’re reporting on and so they be sure to put lots of quotation marks around things and use syntax that just informs but only in a purely objective and dispassionate manner.

In other words, you can get away with a lot simply by simple semantics incorporating a complete dispassionate neutrality. It may seem a trifle dry and robotic, but those neutral prefaces and precious quotation marks are the tools of the trade for effectively covering one’s butt in any situation.

18

What laws are on your side (in the U.S.) so you can leave quietly

by oppostate in

jw
friends

in another topic "just quit quietly - the law is on your side" there was a lot of discussion about how to leave quietly without getting tagged publicly as "no longer a jw".

here are some legal cases that could be used to show support for leaving quietly.. you have to first send a letter saying you're leaving that specific congregation, and that you don't want them to keep records of you.. if the boe says anything against you here are some court cases that make precedent for bringing a suit against them:.

baugh v. thomas (1970).

SAHS

“oppostate”: “You have to first send a letter saying you're leaving that specific congregation, and that you don't want them to keep records of you. . . . Basically if you withdraw from a congregation, you can hold them legally responsible if they retaliate against you for doing so. This makes for a situation where they cannot DF you for leaving the congregation.”

The only potential problem I’m thinking of, in practice, is that even though the congregation may theoretically have some legal liability for disfellowshipping a person in a manner which is unjustified and unwarranted (at least according to “natural law” or general “contract law”), they may just decide to go ahead and do that anyway, sending their little committee report to the Watchtower branch headquarters – because if anyone goes sending letters to the BOE in an attempt to tell them how to run things in his or her particular case, especially by putting forth some form of an ultimatum, the BOE is apt to consider such actions as a form of what they term “insubordination,” which probably would usually apply to an elder but may possibly be used against a ministerial servant or even just a rank-and-file member. (It all depends on how they may interpret and apply it.)

I’ve heard that the Watchtower has used “insubordination” as a grounds for committee cases and has even led to disfellowshipping of brothers. (And look what happened to our dear brother Raymond Franz when they even just suspected that he was rocking the boat!) Apparently “insubordination” is theoretically something they can use as a blanket charge against any who don’t tow the party line and who dare to not do what they’re told. (It seems that BOE’s tend to not exactly care for being told what to do by any “dissenters.”)

44

Looking for Truth with a capital "T"?

by Terry in

jw
friends

stop begging for crumbs like a pigeon in the park!.

nobody anywhere has truth tied up with a red ribbon to hand to you so you.

can go skipping down the road with a smile!.

SAHS

“Terry”: “Each person looks as normal as normal can be. . . . Since there is nothing remarkable about appearances, how would YOU know which was which if you casually passed by?”

That brings to mind a saying which my mother once told me regarding perceptions of what is truth: There is (1) what a person thinks is true in his or her own mind, there is (2) what another person thinks is true in his or her own mind, and then there is (3) the actual truth, whatever that may be.

Truth is truth. It’s just a matter of how close anyone can get to perceiving it.

I think that whatever the ultimate truth is – you know, what caused the big bang and what mathematical phenomena ended up being put in place to evolve the results of that big bang, and how it all works – spacetime creation (initial instant hyperinflation stage and current continual spacetime expansion, as per “Hubble’s constant”), dark matter/energy, logic of chaos theory, limits of the “infinite” (in time and space) – the cosmic and quantum physics stuff that is in the realm of folks like Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking, which often tends to somewhat straddle both the purely empirical and the scientifically philosophical camps . . . . . . . . Sorry if I may have become somewhat sidetracked (just had a large black coffee and doughnut), but, anyway . . . . as I was saying: I think that whatever the ultimate truth is, it’s kind of like the classic illustration of the six blind men and the elephant. (Possibly some versions may differ in the number of blind men being six, but the standard version involves six blind men – that’s not important!) Anyway, the illustration goes like this: the little group of six men, each being blind, are feeling all around this elephant (not naughtily – get your mind out of the gutter!) . . . . okay, these blind men are feeling the elephant to attempt to deduce exactly what it is. Each one feels just one part of it but all feel a different part. Now, one of them says it’s one thing, another says it’s something else, and so on – they each think it’s something different. As stated at “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant” (under the subheading “The story”): “In some versions, they stop talking, start listening and collaborate to ‘see’ the full elephant. When a sighted man walks by and sees the entire elephant all at once, they also learn they are blind. While one’s subjective experience is true, it may not be the totality of truth. If the sighted man was deaf, he would not hear the elephant bellow.”

My point in this is that everyone is “feeling around” for some kind of “God” as a form of some cosmic superbeing, and everyone has their own little take on it, but I think, going back to the above illustration, that in reality what is there is actually NOT an elephant! And, in fact, I think that the profound twist of it all is that in reality there is actually NOTHING there at all! I believe that all those blind men are delusional and that the “elephant” is actually a collective fabrication!

Indeed, I think that we are all in a kind of super psychological thriller – you know, the kind with a shocking twist at the end. (Like in the classic thriller movie Psycho, where the main character actually hasn’t been talking to his mother but conversing with himself in two different voices, and his mother had already been dead and pickled in her room.) And the big twist as far as the “God” thing goes is that there is actually nothing there at all. “God” is simply a collective delusional fabrication, and the real “God” is simply that which has ended up being put in place through the evolving mathematical chaos manifest by the processes and functioning of the universe and spacetime quantum energies as a whole. Well, that’s what I think, anyway.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

SAHS

“Ajax”: “When someone needs to escapes from abuse, the technicalities of the method of escape are irrelevant.”

That is certainly a fundamental truth based on the universal principle of natural law. Abuse is abuse, and it should not be required of anybody to take abuse, either of their person, their free will, or their intrinsic legal human rights.

However, if a person were to in any way attempt to rely on some legally signed, witnessed, and dated document, then that document would have to be sent and delivered to the party to which it is directed in a timely fashion to effectively and fairly communicate the content and essence of that document. People or organizations are not required to be mind readers.

But having said that, of course, in a case of universally recognized abuse – such as the Watchtower’s smear tactic and coercive instrument of public disfellowshipping – then no such legal document would be needed, as the right to leave one’s religion (as explicitly specified in Article 18 of UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights) is already deemed to be a basic universal and inalienable right of everyone. (At least in theory and on paper.) Requiring any kind of legal disassociation letter would be like requiring a battered wife to produce some legal document to escape a dangerous domestic situation, or requiring a child sex slave to get a legal letter drafted by a lawyer to escape forced slavery or unlawful coercion and confinement.

Being effectively held against one’s will through fear and intimidation techniques of the Watchtower clearly violates the principles of basic human rights, and should really also be prohibited by law, especially considering all the fear, depression, and even suicides which are – and have already been – the obvious and tangible offshoots of this despicable practice of forced shunning to blackmail followers into compliance and servitude.

I think that our best weapon as XJWs is not so much to individually seek legal redress but, rather, the power of the media, in all its forms, to publically expose the cult. That way, instead of having to waste enormous funds on civil and/or legal proceedings, we can all band together with our collective voice to hit the cult where it hurts the most: general public opinion. That way, we can not only liberate ourselves but be the catalyst for others to be able to liberate themselves also.

Remember, we do have the power. No secret preemptive written disassociation in our arsenal is really necessary.

44

Looking for Truth with a capital "T"?

by Terry in

jw
friends

stop begging for crumbs like a pigeon in the park!.

nobody anywhere has truth tied up with a red ribbon to hand to you so you.

can go skipping down the road with a smile!.

SAHS

Now that’s some advice you can take to the bank! Finally, some logical realism.

“People make shit up and sell it as TRUTH. People who are dumber buy it and make it their world.”

That’s an understatement. What I like to call the “excremental truth” – that is, the ever-present verbal/written mystical religious shit – has always been with us, from the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Bhagavad Gita, the Mahabharata, . . . oh, and the Bible, as well as the Talmud, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc. And kind of along those same lines, we have the current fringe beliefs of things like the sasquatch, Loch Ness monster, the abominable snowman, the Latin chupacabra (blood-sucking demon monster), green aliens who apparently had a hankering to crash-land in Roswell, New Mexico, etc., etc., etc. Yep, from astrology to numerology (and don’t forget pyramidology!) to so-called faith healers to crystal ball gazing, tarot card reading street charlatans – well, as one of my favorite expressions goes, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”

Now, myself – I just believe in (or at least now I do) the concept of a “Higher Power,” or “God,” as being simply the natural processes and functioning of the universe as a whole. Some people think of “God” as being simply Good Orderly Direction. I think that the reality of the “God” concept is really more of a purely mathematical phenomenon, somewhat akin to some form of mathematical “chaos theory.” But I do NOT believe in any mystical entity as a “divine being,” which so many people seem to keep stuck on. I think that people have some innate tendency to fabricate and anthropomorphize such a being, or deity, which is in fact just a projection of their own need, or at least yearning, for some all-wise, all-powerful father figure (I think Freud had that one right). But when you look at the history of humankind from a psychological, anthropological perspective, it become so obvious that people’s believe in a “God” is not coincidentally quite self-serving and rife with all the basic human defects of character – such as fear, pride, greed, and lust. After all, don’t all religious groups keep claiming, “We’re right, everyone else is wrong!” It’s always “us vs. them” – or at least “our god vs. your god.”

As you said, Terry, “A good life is a practical life.” At the end of the day, it all boils down to, as you stated: “Build your own world. People it with sanity. Water it and nurture it and watch it grow. At the end of life, you'll look back on friends, family, people who admire you for all the help you've been. THAT is your heavenly reward.” As the popular expression goes, “Some of the best things in life are free.” So many folks the world over squander so much of their lives striving for some ideal to put them in good stead with a made-up “afterlife,” while the real answer to the meaning of life has been right under their nose all along – I believe that the answer to the meaning of life is that there is NO such answer; the meaning of life is simply in the living of life one day, one moment at a time and enjoying the journey. It’s called “mindfulness.” And that, my friend, is the so-called big secret of it all. And that, as you so eloquently put it, is: “So simple. So beautiful. So true.”

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

SAHS

“oppostate”: “This will prevent their announcing anything about your not being a JW anymore, all you've done is leave that congregation and that's not a DF'ing offense.”

If that is all a person is seeking to accomplish – simply leaving or withdrawing from a particular congregation – then there is nothing else he or she needs to do but simply leave that congregation. There would be no necessity for any type of legal letter if that’s all that’s involved – leaving a particular congregation.

The only situation requiring a legal letter would be if someone wanted to formally leave the Jehovah’s Witness religion itself and no longer wished to be identified as a Jehovah’s Witness. But of course the tricky part is submitting a written disassociation while still expecting to get out of actually being disfellowshipped and having the standard “so-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” announcement made at the next mid-week meeting. Unfortunately, I think it looks like that would be a rather impossible outcome to avoid.

The only way someone can have their cake and eat it too by effectively leaving the Jehovah’s Witness religion and not being formally disfellowshipped is to just do the fade thing while simply telling anyone who tries to interrogate them that they don’t wish to discuss anything whatsoever. And if someone were to do just that – fade away while refusing to discuss anything – and they still got disfellowshipped in absentia, then they would probably have somewhat of a fairly good case for a lawsuit for basic breach of contract under “natural law.”