is there a particular belief/doctrine that really burns you up and makes you wonder how people could believe this, and did you as a loyal jw at one time believe in it (your most hated belief), what made you change your mind ???.
for me, i always enjoy reading the history of the watchtower (1879-1974), and how things constantly change from year to year.
the sodom and gomorrah question is hilarious .
From a Biblical and Christian standpoint, I'd put the "Two-Hopes" stuff first: leading so many people to read away the best of the NT by commenting "it's nice, but it's not for me", and strengthening the addiction to the "organization" at the same time...
On a more human and practical standpoint, of course, I guess many things are much worse (the no-blood policy for instance).
we got this call from one of the elders who df'd one of our loved ones.he wanted to know where so and so lives,phone # etc.this after two and a half years.they wanted to make contact to see if that one wanted to return to the congregation.
( not like the prodigal,who was restored on the spot by his father,rather ,by sitting for six months in the back of the hall and given the silent treatment.
he admitted tha elders can't read the heart and make mistakes 'mistakes' destroying someones life is a mistake??
During the last 17 years, nothing like an "official call". The "apostate" label is worth the cost! Usually the "publishers" carefully avoid my place, but at times they forget and call...
at this point in my life i don't think i could trust any religious group.
i don't even feel the need to be a part of anything like that right now, and maybe never will.. but i know of some who have joined other churches/groups since leaving the borg.. why do some join another religion and why won't some ever get involved again?.
what makes us so different?.
First of all I must admit I loved this thread and the tremendous variety of its contributions.
Like many French people, I was born and baptized as a Roman catholic, though my folks were not churchgoers at all. In 1972, at the age of 13, I became a JW with part of my family. Despite some serious doubts in my teen years, I decided to move on and became a pioneer, then a Bethel member. I spent 5 years translating the Watchtower and other WT literature, especially large sections of the "Aid" book which gave me the desire to understand the Bible better, and led me to learn Hebrew and Greek on my own. Gradually my faith changed: the figure of Jesus, as it appeared in the Gospels, was becoming central to me, and the WT's specific beliefs, at best, receded into the background.
Hoping to come back to a basic "Christian" preaching, I resigned from Bethel and resumed my previous activity as a "special pioneer". But my practice was now different. I gradually stopped using WT literature and concentrated on the Bible itself, within and without the congregation. I had very good experiences in "Bible studies" which were really "Bible studies". However, it couldn't last very long. Together with a fellow pioneer, who had reached similar conclusions through a very different way, I partook in the 1986 Memorial. Two months later we were both disfellowshipped for "apostasy" -- although the initial motive for being dragged before a "Judicial Committee" was simply that "we were talking too much about Jesus"...
This is to explain that when I came out of the WT I was on a definitely religious path, and I only found natural to go on this way. So shortly afterwards I was attending an Evangelical Church in Paris and began theological studies. However, I soon realized that I would not agree with Evangelical theology. I then worked during many years in the French Bible Society, on a new Study Bible which came out last year. Having to review the whole Bible in detail with the best available scholars led me to an increasingly critical analysis of the Christian faith, though I kept associating from time to time with a pluralistic Reformed church. The end of my religious journey came with the birth of my daughter, nearly seven years ago: I suddenly realized that I didn't want her to grow with a religious belief. Since then I very rarely enter any church, except for cultural purposes. When, on such occasions, I tell my daughter about "God" or "Jesus", it is much like a "fairy tale" she can get in... and out.
I still find the Bible and Christian theology interesting, from a literary and ideological standpoint. I keep participating from time to time in "theological discussions" with liberal Christians (including some Unitarians) who can accept my fairly "atheistic" and "postchristian" views even if they don't agree with them. That's all, I guess.
i recently read (secondhand) the following report (from newsday.com/business, september 22, 2003)
?watchtower bible & tract society.
of new york.
Thank you very much for your answers. I guess "revenue" really means what Insomniac and Shamus seem to be agreeing on. Anyway the figures (especially if repeated identically one year after another) may be sheer fake.
I learnt a lot from Hamas? link, since I was already out of the WT when the 1990 policy change occured. The 1996 "thrift appeal" might be interpreted as a sign that the WT is not so well off after all, but it may be mere "communication strategy" as well.
As regards tax exemption, you must be aware that many countries are not as generous with religious organizations as the US administration seems to be. In France, the debate is still continuing before the courts as far as I know. As for the Labor Code, the French branch has been able, to this day, to escape the general regulation on social charges by affirming that the "Bethelites" were nothing but a religious congregation. However, a recent work accident in the French Bethel opened the eyes of the French administration, and the matter is still before the courts too.
i recently read (secondhand) the following report (from newsday.com/business, september 22, 2003)
?watchtower bible & tract society.
of new york.
According to a friend on a French forum, the WTBTS of NY has been declaring exactly the same annual figure (whatever it may mean) for the last three years. Isn't that strange?
i recently read (secondhand) the following report (from newsday.com/business, september 22, 2003)
?watchtower bible & tract society.
of new york.
Hello everybody,
I recently read (secondhand) the following report (from newsday.com/business, September 22, 2003)
? WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY
OF NEW YORK
25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, 11201
718-560-5000
www.watchtower.org
Revenue: $951 million
Industry: Publishing
CEO: Don Adams
Employees: 5,227 (all volunteers); local, 3,000
The Brooklyn print shop responsible for producing almost half of the
books used by Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide will soon complete its
final run. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York printery
that has produced more than 1 billion books since 1927 is slated for
closure now that printing, binding and shipping operations will be
moved to a Walkill, N.Y., location. Walkill's new bindery equipment
will be able to produce hardcover books and deluxe Bibles at a rate
of 120 a minute.
In May, Watchtower announced plans to sell the 1-million-square-foot
building - just one of the buildings in the Brooklyn waterfront
complex. "Perhaps this building will be used by others in a way that
is compatible with the Brooklyn waterfront development," said Robert
Alexander, a spokesman for Watchtower. The organization headquarters
will remain.
Watchtower says these changes will contribute to a streamlined flow
of literature to its 12,000 congregations in the United States. The
Jehovah's Witnesses' primary journal, The Watchtower, has an
international circulation of 25 million in 147 languages.?
My question is one of technical terminology: what is exactly meant by ?revenue?? Is it the gross total of receipts (turnover, financial products, and so forth), before any deduction of costs and charges? Or the (gross or net) profit?
As I wondered over this figure (rather abstract to me) I had the idea (a very natural one for a former Bethelite) to divide it by the number of ?volunteers employees? mentioned. The result was, on an European basis there would be several times enough to pay all the workers a decent salary with all charges included. What do you think?
to make a long story short, i'm an xjw from france: born and baptized as a catholic, i became a jw in 1972 at the age of 13 with part of my family; then a pioneer and a bethel member, before being disfellowshipped for "apostasy" in 1986. afterwards, involved in theology and bible edition with the mainstream protestant churches, slowly drifting from the evangelical to the liberal wing and finally out of all religious groups and beliefs.
the "atheologist" label, i guess, would suit fairly enough by now.. the question i'd like to ask my fellow xjw "brothers and sisters" (and there seems to be plenty of them around .
the question is especially directed to those of you who would not easily term themselves "christians", and who have not sticked to any recognized "creed".
Well, my previous post has been labeled as "medical", but it was not meant to be!!! And I don't know how to change the heading...
to make a long story short, i'm an xjw from france: born and baptized as a catholic, i became a jw in 1972 at the age of 13 with part of my family; then a pioneer and a bethel member, before being disfellowshipped for "apostasy" in 1986. afterwards, involved in theology and bible edition with the mainstream protestant churches, slowly drifting from the evangelical to the liberal wing and finally out of all religious groups and beliefs.
the "atheologist" label, i guess, would suit fairly enough by now.. the question i'd like to ask my fellow xjw "brothers and sisters" (and there seems to be plenty of them around .
the question is especially directed to those of you who would not easily term themselves "christians", and who have not sticked to any recognized "creed".
Hello,
To make a long story short, I'm an xJW from France: born and baptized as a Catholic, I became a JW in 1972 at the age of 13 with part of my family; then a pioneer and a Bethel member, before being disfellowshipped for "apostasy" in 1986. Afterwards, involved in theology and Bible edition with the mainstream Protestant churches, slowly drifting from the Evangelical to the Liberal wing and finally out of all religious groups and beliefs. The "atheologist" label, I guess, would suit fairly enough by now.
The question I'd like to ask my fellow xJW "brothers and sisters" (and there seems to be plenty of them around ) is the following: what would you now retain from Christianity, or the Bible, or "God"? Is there a kind of "faith" after the collapse of beliefs? How would you define it?
The question is especially directed to those of you who would not easily term themselves "Christians", and who have not sticked to any recognized "creed".
Looking forward to reading from you,
Narkissos
jacques luc of belgium has a question for anyone who knows about the no-blood policy.
when a jw enters a hospital for any treatment or surgery, he/she of course tells the staff that as a jw he/she can't accept any blood transfusion.
now jacques has heard from good authority, that in european countries, the hospital liaison committee now gives the doctor or surgeon in charge of the jw patient a document from the watch tower society, that says that if their conscience dictates them to use blood to treat the jw patient, the watch tower society would not sue them, nor would the patient....
Thank you for all your words of welcome.
Unfortunately I can't presently get anymore information from my stepsister either, because over the years I only heard of her when she had problems with her parents and never when they were getting on all right ? which now seems to be the case... ;-)) In fact they all moved recently, without leaving me any address, and I have no way to get in touch with them...
However I doubt she could have misunderstood the general import of the HLC communication, because she was well acquainted with the WT usual policy. What she told me about was quite new and unexpected. I?m sorry I did?nt ask more at the moment. I was not in touch with any xJW at that time and did not think the information could be useful to anybody else. I just smiled at the ?double talk? and felt happy that my father would receive the best possible medical care.
The alleged shift from disfellowshipping to disassociation for blood ?trespassing? does not in itself mean much. Just one more case of ?theocratic strategy?, probably. In the old days when military service was compulsory in France, the few young people among JWs who did comply were not disfellowshipped, but considered as ?disassociating themselves?; however the practical consequences were exactly the same. The nominal difference was apparently enough to clear the local WT of any suspicion of forbidden antimilitaristic propaganda.
As for ?Crisis of Conscience?, I must say I loved that book very much. In fact, shortly after I was disfellowshipped in 1986 (about one month after conscientiously partaking in my first and last Memorial :-)) I got in touch with Ray Franz through another French former witness and began translating the book into French. However, with the burden of studies and work at the same time I had to give it up after a few weeks. A few months ago I was very happpy to learn that the translation had finally been completed and was ready to be published: but finding an adequate and willing publisher still seems to be a difficult task!
Narkissos
jacques luc of belgium has a question for anyone who knows about the no-blood policy.
when a jw enters a hospital for any treatment or surgery, he/she of course tells the staff that as a jw he/she can't accept any blood transfusion.
now jacques has heard from good authority, that in european countries, the hospital liaison committee now gives the doctor or surgeon in charge of the jw patient a document from the watch tower society, that says that if their conscience dictates them to use blood to treat the jw patient, the watch tower society would not sue them, nor would the patient....
Hello everybody,
I happen to be the source of information Jacques Luc mentioned to Celia.
Just to introduce myself, I became a JW in 1972, at the age of 13. Then a pioneer and a member of the French Bethel from 1981 to 1985. Finally disfellowshipped on the grounds of "apostasy" in 1986.
The case I related to Jacques is the following: about 3 years ago, my father (who is still an elder among JWs, as far as I know) had to undergo a new heart surgical intervention. Although I had no direct contact with him, I heard from my stepsister (who is not a JW) that a few days before his hospitalization he received from the HLC some documents (probably not originated from the WT itself, rather something like a jurisprudence study in the press) to the effect that the hospital practitioners would not have any chance to be sued if they had to administer him a blood transfusion against his declared "will". As I understand, he was greatly relieved and gladly communicated the documents to his surgeon. That's all I know, and unfortunately I'm not in a position to check this matter further with him at the present time (hopefully someday!).
My guess is that through this kind of "double talk" the WT now tries to reduce as much as possible the casualties of its blood policy, without having to deny it "officially" through a "new light". Of course this case is related to the law and jurisprudence in France, but it may have some correspondence in other countries as well.
Bye,
Narkissos
