Posts by Narkissos

11

Do JW's believe that Moses wrote the 1st five books?

by homeschool in

well, i'm a few chapters into who wrote the bible, by richard elliot friedman (thanks, primate, for the suggestion!

)...there's no way i could explain the book to you, but i can see exactly what it's saying.

the author really puts it in layman's terms to show how many people/men wrote the bible.

Narkissos

homeschool : because "Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth" (Numbers 12:3). ;)

13

"understand that I am he" Isaiah 43:10

by Chalam in

isaiah 43:10 (new international version) .

10 "you are my witnesses," declares the lord, .

"and my servant whom i have chosen, .

Narkissos

I think you are misreading the (English) text of Isaiah in a way the translator(s) never thought of (but translators often underestimate their readers... :))

"I am he" ('ani hu') does not refer to the "servant": in that phrase as used in Dt-Isaiah (cf. 41:4; 43:13; 46:4; 48:12; 52:6) "he" doesn't stand for any particular predicate (I am this or that), the whole phrase is an absolute self-affirmation of Yhwh (which the LXX translates as egô eimi, "I am," which becomes a Christological self-affirmation in John). Here "my servant" parallels "my witnesses", just as in 48:12 "Jacob" parallels "Israel" and the next "I am he" doesn't refer to either...

65

Tower Of Babel

by Blue Grass in

note:this was a post i made on another thread but i felt it was off topic so i giving it it's own thread.. someone(who i can't remember) on a thread(which i can't remember) said the tower of babel story is proven false because some languages evolved from others and thus that was another strike against the bible as being fiction.

however this person doesn't realize that there are languages on this earth that has absolutely no relation whatsoever such as chinese-english, spanish-arabic, greek-xhosa, etc.

not to mention all of the ancient languages that are now extinct due to invading countries forcing their own language on other countries.

Narkissos

Caedes,

I have no idea, but that would be an interesting question (although slightly off-topic here): perhaps the first step would be to ask when the motif of "God's wager with the devil" came up within WT theology itself. I'm sure it played a big part in Rutherford's day ("vindication" etc.), but was it already in Russell's teaching? There are a number of posters here who could probably help with that one, but maybe it would be better to make it another thread.

81

Did Jesus ever claim Messiahship?

by AK - Jeff in

in her book, introduction to christianity, mary jo weaver says this:.

"some christians think that jesus was so clearly the messiah that no one could fail to recognize him as such...... christians who see jews as a 'problem' might be surprised to learn that jesus has been a continual puzzle for the jews.

medieval jews tended to picture jesus as an apostate jew, a man who had lost his faith; 19th century jewish scholars had an image of jesus as a great ethical teacher.

Narkissos

A better approach to this discussion might start with questioning the presupposition that there was one concept of "Messiahship" common to all or even most 1st-century AD Jews. This is definitely not the case. End-time figures of several kinds, whether angelic or human, "anointed" (according to the etymology of "Messiah" or "Christ") or not, on a "kingly" or "priestly" pattern (both kings and priests being called mashiach / khristos), played a part in the expectations of some segments of Judaism (Pharisees, Qumrân) -- and none in others (Sadducees, Philo). The "messiah" profile as developed and standardised both in Christianity and in rabbinical Judaism from the latter part of the 1st century onward, either to suit the Jesus character or against him, can only be retrojected on an early 1st-century figure anachronistically. A historical Jesus might have claimed to be "the messiah" by some specific definition of that term -- but which one?

65

Tower Of Babel

by Blue Grass in

note:this was a post i made on another thread but i felt it was off topic so i giving it it's own thread.. someone(who i can't remember) on a thread(which i can't remember) said the tower of babel story is proven false because some languages evolved from others and thus that was another strike against the bible as being fiction.

however this person doesn't realize that there are languages on this earth that has absolutely no relation whatsoever such as chinese-english, spanish-arabic, greek-xhosa, etc.

not to mention all of the ancient languages that are now extinct due to invading countries forcing their own language on other countries.

Narkissos

Caedes,

I for one have never heard this (God's wager with the devil) interpretive pattern taught outside the WT, but sometimes catchy ideas like this seep through confessional borders in popular theology. And phenomenal 'theodiversity' is certainly higher in the English-speaking world anyway.

However, I was referring to the Bible, not pop theology. Nowhere afaik is the notion of a "wager with the devil" suggested as the explanation for sin, evil, God's patience or inaction in general. This is an extrapolation from the plot in Job's prose prologue, where actually "the satan" (a functional title, not a name) is not Yhwh's adversary, but Yhwh's servant in the role of prosecutor or witness for the prosecution against Job before the heavenly court, like in Zechariah 3 against Yeshua/Jesus the high priest. The difference with Zechariah is that the satan is allowed action, not just words, to make his point, and Yhwh himself argues for the defence rather than an angel. So we are moving toward the later view of Satan as THE enemy of God himself, but not quite there yet.

The Yhwh of the "J" Genesis stories, on the other hand, is not arguing or playing with any other mythological character, but with mankind itself. And he doesn't claim to be "fair" by any outward standard...

65

Tower Of Babel

by Blue Grass in

note:this was a post i made on another thread but i felt it was off topic so i giving it it's own thread.. someone(who i can't remember) on a thread(which i can't remember) said the tower of babel story is proven false because some languages evolved from others and thus that was another strike against the bible as being fiction.

however this person doesn't realize that there are languages on this earth that has absolutely no relation whatsoever such as chinese-english, spanish-arabic, greek-xhosa, etc.

not to mention all of the ancient languages that are now extinct due to invading countries forcing their own language on other countries.

Narkissos

Caedes,

Only the notion of "God's wager with the devil" (extrapolation to "human history" of a misunderstanding of the plot in Job's Prologue) is a problem with the WT, not with the Bible.

30

Witness Bible altered text Genisis 3:6 to show the "Tree of knowlege" had no "magical powers' Cover up! Shock!

by Witness 007 in

my eyes fell out of my head when i found this....i always thought the tree of knowlege had "magic powers" but the watchtower said no, no it's just symbolic.. this is how the verse reads in the nwt bible.

gen 3:6 "the woman saw that the tree was good for food and it was something to be longed for to the eyes, the tree was desirable to look upon......." {repeats the same verse twice!}.

check out the nwt footnote study version.

Narkissos

angel eyes: as a rule of thumb, texts do mean what they say (even in the Bible!) and the less you add to "make sense" of them, the better. Of course sapiential (or "wisdom") tales like this one were told/written to make the hearer/reader think, but it is much more a matter of subsequent reflection or meditation than "reading between the lines" so to say.

Mary: the idea that the man had to (and did) eat from the "tree of life" continuously is not supported by the text, if only for the reason that it is not stated, hence not part of the story (cf. previous remark). Although the tree of life is introduced in 2:9 as an anticipation of the conclusion (in a rather awkward manner, since it is put "in the midst of the garden," where the tree of knowledge is according to 3:3), it plays absolutely no part in the narrative down to the conclusion. And Yhwh's hurried decision to move the man and woman out of the garden is clearly motivated by the fear that they might also take from the tree of life -- something which apparently hadn't happened yet but might well happen anytime now that they "know": "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." (In the Gilgamesh epic, the serpent takes the plant of life away before Gilgamesh can use it.)

hamsterbait: the humour is even more apparent with the pun in the Hebrew text: they were naked (`arummim), the serpent was wise (`arum), and now they know they are naked...

(Reminds me of a Lubitsch line about partnership: "I had the money, he had the experience. After that he had the money and I had the experience.")

65

Tower Of Babel

by Blue Grass in

note:this was a post i made on another thread but i felt it was off topic so i giving it it's own thread.. someone(who i can't remember) on a thread(which i can't remember) said the tower of babel story is proven false because some languages evolved from others and thus that was another strike against the bible as being fiction.

however this person doesn't realize that there are languages on this earth that has absolutely no relation whatsoever such as chinese-english, spanish-arabic, greek-xhosa, etc.

not to mention all of the ancient languages that are now extinct due to invading countries forcing their own language on other countries.

Narkissos

Blue Grass,

You should really read more on the history of languages (a number of useful links can be found from the thread I pointed you to on p. 1, and you will find many others from a simple Google search). Try to get some clues about the so-called "Book of Jasher" while you're at it (e.g. http://answers.org/bible/jasher-book-of.html).

I would add, however, that this linguistical issue is irrelevant to the Babel story, which only implies non mutually transparent languages, not unrelated ones. Even closely related languages are often opaque to each other.

22

Lazarus

by PSacramento in

what happend to lazarus, the one that jesus ressurected?.

it is "hinted" that there was a plot to kill him to disprove of his ressurection.. anyone know?.

Narkissos

Although expressed from a modern rationalistic perspective, Billy's objection might point to the basic reason why the BD's identification with Lazarus was eventually dropped in Christian tradition, maybe already in the latest strata of the Fourth Gospel (after all, chapter 21 denies the claim that the BD would never die): the Lazarus character was the ideal witness to a "spiritual" community living mostly on "mystagogical midrash" and inner testimony, but hardly to a broader church depending on external "apostolic" authority of a historical or pseudo-historical kind...

65

Tower Of Babel

by Blue Grass in

note:this was a post i made on another thread but i felt it was off topic so i giving it it's own thread.. someone(who i can't remember) on a thread(which i can't remember) said the tower of babel story is proven false because some languages evolved from others and thus that was another strike against the bible as being fiction.

however this person doesn't realize that there are languages on this earth that has absolutely no relation whatsoever such as chinese-english, spanish-arabic, greek-xhosa, etc.

not to mention all of the ancient languages that are now extinct due to invading countries forcing their own language on other countries.

Narkissos

Which "Book of Jasher"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_haYashar

P.S. The Nimrod/Babel connection is already developed in Josephus, AJ I,iv, with moralising developments:

Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach! and that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers !

Now the multitude were very ready to follow the determination of Nimrod, and to esteem it a piece of cowardice to submit to God; and they built a tower, neither sparing any pains, nor being in any degree negligent about the work: and, by reason of the multitude of hands employed in it, it grew very high, sooner than any one could expect; but the thickness of it was so great, and it was so strongly built, that thereby its great height seemed, upon the view, to be less than it really was. It was built of burnt brick, cemented together with mortar, made of bitumen, that it might not be liable to admit water. When God saw that they acted so madly, he did not resolve to destroy them utterly, since they were not grown wiser by the destruction of the former sinners; but he caused a tumult among them, by producing in them divers languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion. The Sibyl also makes mention of this tower, and of the confusion of the language, when she says thus: "When all men were of one language, some of them built a high tower, as if they would thereby ascend up to heaven, but the gods sent storms of wind and overthrew the tower, and gave every one his peculiar language; and for this reason it was that the city was called Babylon." But as to the plan of Shinar, in the country of Babylonia, Hestiaeus mentions it, when he says thus: "Such of the priests as were saved, took the sacred vessels of Jupiter Enyalius, and came to Shinar of Babylonia."