Posts by Narkissos

29

To everone on the board, a serious note!!!!We had the truth...Back I go...

by qwerty in

jw
friends

got yu!!!!!!!!.

my christmas card to you all............ try clicking on the raindeer!.

qwerty

Narkissos

Thanks Qwerty,

I'll show that to my daughter when she comes back from school. I'm sure she'll love it!

Btw, reindeers might be accepted in Kingdom Halls if they quit associating with apostate Santa...

43

Why do the JW's not Believe in Hell?

by Tirisilex in

i may have asked this question before awhile back but i was not able to find it in the search.

other than what the nwt provides for information.. how do the jw's provide proof for this no hell belief?

Narkissos

Archangel: Your God reminds me of a French phrase (I don't know if my English translation will be understood overseas): "If you meet him on the sidewalk, cross the street."

What would you think of a guy saying: "I love you, but if you don't accept my love I'll torture you"? Screwy. Just imagine what kind of mind a similar God could come from.

Speak about morality: in the Bible Job is a moral character, and because he is he has the guts to risk his life arguing with such a god (who was not yet screwy enough to invent such a perversion as "Christian" hell).

Leolaia, I'm definitely on your fan club: once again your synthesis was great! (btw, thanks for your replies on the other threads). Just for a complement, etymologically Sheol is definitely related to the meaning "inquire" of the sh'l root (as in 1S 28), but also to the meaning "claim" of the same root, as the old mythological representation of death eventually claiming every mortal (good or bad, that's the pars veritatis of the adventist and JW teaching IMO): Psalms 141:7 and Proverbes 30:15f on this one.

13

How Have You Regained Your Optimism (if you have)?

by bisous in

jw
friends

my experience in the jws and now that i am out is i am robbed of most of my optimism.

while in....we were taught fear and 2 choices....eternal life on earth under much the same administration which was full of drudgery, judgement, motivation by guilt....or....death.

period.

Narkissos

Hello Bisous,

I was never an optimist. At best I was sometimes described as a "hilarious pessimist".

Only my 7-year old daughter (and children in general) can bring me close to optimism.

37

Losing the Truth in Bible Translations?

by ApagaLaLuz in

here's something i wanted to throw out for debate.

there is a line in a smashing pumpkins song that says "something always gets lost in the translation.

" how true of a translation of the bible do you think you can find?

Narkissos

Hi Earnest,

I just saw your post now. With it we are brought back to the basic question "What is truth?". My opinion is that religious truth is exactly what you want it to be.

You mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls, but you are certainly aware that they are not an unilateral witness to the Septuagint's Hebrew substrate. For instance, you know how different the Masoretic Text (MT) and the Septuagint (LXX) are in the book of Jeremiah. The fact is that two Hebrew texts have been found in the same Qumran cave, one (4QJra) roughly corresponding to the later MT, the other (4QJrb) to the LXX. The conclusion is that the two Hebrew editions coexisted and were accepted in Judaism until the Mishnic school eliminated the variant texts, only keeping the premasoretic one.

As Hebrew scholar Emmanuel Tov noted years ago, in such cases the very idea of an "original" (as the traditional goal of textual criticism) vanishes. What we are left with is the infinite drift of scripture and meaning, in which translation belongs as far as we can know. French author Jacques Derrida made this theme one of the main bases of his fascinating philosophical and literary work.

60

Your Ideas On The Bible?

by shamus in

so, what do you think about the bible?

is it really ispired of god?.

i am strongly believing that the bible is nothing more than folk-tales, half-truths, and suggestions by man.

Narkissos

I would rather describe the Bible as the textual cradle of God. In the lowest strata of the texts, there is no "God" -- only gods. The main milestones in the birth of the new concept of "God" are Josiah's reform in the 7th century BC (Yhwh is not yet God, but the only god to be worshipped -- not yet monotheism but monolatry or henotheism) and Second Isaiah in the 6th century BC (only the god Yhwh exists as such, all other gods are nothing).

Even if we have moved further from monotheism to atheism (as I think I have), the texts which were eventually gathered into the Bible remain an essential part of our imaginary / cultural history.

4

Adam

by Heatmiser in

god said, "go down into that valley.

" and god explained it to him.

then god said, "cross the river" and adam said "what's a river?

Narkissos

LOL! This one was great...

19

Star of Bethlehem

by undercover in

the bible, only in matthew(i think) speaks of the star that the astrologers followed to find the baby jesus.

the wts has claimed that this star obviously was a product of satan, since the astrolgers first wound up in jersusalem, met herod, who conspired with them to locate the baby.

after that, the astrologers continued on to bethlehem.. a couple of questions:.

Narkissos

In addition to the general thrust of the narrative itself, which never implies a negative overtone about the star or the Magi, I think the main argument for a POSITIVE interpretation results from the overall perspective of Matthew.

My presuppositions (which I won't discuss here): this story is a pure legend; historical or astronomical considerations will be of no help here. The Lukan story is a different legend (common points being the virgin conception and Bethlehem as the place of birth) which is not meant to be combined with this one: in Matthew, Joseph and Mary just live in Bethlehem and move to Galilee as the result of the story (2:22); in Luke, they live in Galilee and make a special move to Bethlehem because of the (anachronistic) census (2:4). In other words, Matthew's Magi and Luke's shepherds belong to different stories and were never supposed to meet.

This being understood, what is Matthew's interest in this story? To show that pagans succeed where Israel has failed (his view, not mine). This is a constant leitmotiv in his text. Just consider the following examples (all of which are specific to Matthew):

- The four women mentioned in the genealogy (chapter 1) are pagans according to contemporary view: Tamar (1:3) is a "Mesopotamian" according to the Testament of Judah (1:10); Rahab (1:5) is a "Canaanite" from Jericho; Ruth (1:5) is a Moabite; the wife of Uriah (1:6) is supposed to be a "Hittite".

- The specific mention of the enlightened "Galilee of the nations" (4:15).

- Matthew insists on the "great faith" of pagans which is not to be found in Israel (the Roman centurion in 8:10; the "Canaanite woman" in 15:28).

- 8:11f: I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

- 12:18 he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles (or Pagans, or "nations").

- 12:21 And in his name the Gentiles will hope.

- 21:43 the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that produces the fruits of the kingdom.

- 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him...

- 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.

Convinced?

18

Jesus, a follower of a Pagan Custom?

by Faraon in

hard as i tried, i could not find any reference to baptism in the ot (old testament to christians, hebrew scriptures to jovah's witless).. i know that previous to john the baptist, many religions, mysteries and cults baptized their initiates mostly either in blood, or in water.

never the jews at that time or now.

for the remision of sins, they just sent a goat to the desert.. jesus did not obviously start the baptism thing.

Narkissos

Sorry Double Edge I didn't see your post before sending mine. Here's the thread I was referring to: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/62765/1.ashx

18

Jesus, a follower of a Pagan Custom?

by Faraon in

hard as i tried, i could not find any reference to baptism in the ot (old testament to christians, hebrew scriptures to jovah's witless).. i know that previous to john the baptist, many religions, mysteries and cults baptized their initiates mostly either in blood, or in water.

never the jews at that time or now.

for the remision of sins, they just sent a goat to the desert.. jesus did not obviously start the baptism thing.

Narkissos

Sacred baths were widespread in ancient Egypt, Babylonia, India and the Hellenistic mystery cults. They were not absent of the ancient Israelite religion (2Kings 5:14; Leviticus 14:8; 15:16ff; Numbers 19:19). They were an essential part of the (probably daily) ritual in the Essene community of Qumran (in the desert of Judah, where the Gospels locate John the Baptist's activity). By the 1st century CE the "baptism of proselytes" became a common Jewish practice (in addition to circumcision). A few days ago a member of this forum described her Jewish "baptism" in a synagogal miqve (if I can find the thread, I'll post the link later).

About the "demons" which seem to appear from nowhere in the NT, a research in "intertestamental" (and particularly apocalyptic) Jewish literature would show that this belief emerged as a side effect of monotheism in the centuries before Christianity. When the traditional god of Israel became God, the diversity of the old polytheism was recast into entities such as good and bad "angels" (including the Hebrew Satan or Greek Diabolos = Devil).

Paganism as a whole is a negative concept which also resulted from the Jewish monotheism, as was in time accepted (and modified) by Christianity. From this point of view, every religious belief or practice which was not included in the "revealed" monotheistic faith was rejected and looked upon as "ethnic" (in Greek) or "pagan" (in Latin).

37

Losing the Truth in Bible Translations?

by ApagaLaLuz in

here's something i wanted to throw out for debate.

there is a line in a smashing pumpkins song that says "something always gets lost in the translation.

" how true of a translation of the bible do you think you can find?

Narkissos

Hello Euphemism,

I probably should have developed a bit:

- In the "Old Testament" only Ezra 4:8--6:18 and Daniel 2:4--7:28 are in aramaic. So any knowledge of aramaic by the NT writers would not have helped them so much in reading the Hebrew Bible. Just think of the difference between the Greek transliteration of popular aramaic "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani" in Mark 15:34 and the original "Eli, Eli, lama azavtani" in the Hebrew Psalm 22:2 (and here the syntax is similar).

- The different dialects of aramaic spoken in Palestine in the 1st century CE, as reflected in the Qumran texts on one side and in the Jerusalem inscriptions on the other side, are quite different from this "Biblical aramaic".

- I doubt any NT WRITER (I don't mean previous oral or written tradition) was of Palestinian origin.

- As for the Hebrew language itself, it had been undergoing a major shift from classical to mishnic (the first syntactical evidence of which is already apparent in Esther and Qoheleth = Ecclesiast). This means that classical Hebrew was well on its way to become a dead language (which it was by the end of the 2nd century CE).

To answer your question, I think the Bible text was definitely read in Hebrew in synagogues as it is still now, even if not understood (somewhat like the Qoran reading in literary Arabic, or the old Latin Mass). Then it was explained and commented orally in the common language (Aramaic in some Palestinian and Syrian synagogues, Greek in many others). The oral "free translation" / "commentary" in aramaic is the very basis of the later Targums.