Xena's post reminds me of this: when I began "drifting" from WT teachings, one thing I realized is the utter absurdity of a God creating people for the sake of judging them. I was still very much of a believer at that time, but I understood I was looking for a quite different kind of God...
Narkissos
JoinedPosts by Narkissos
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67
What will you say to God in your defense?
by fearnotruth22 in.
suppose god holds us accountable.
what will you say to him in your defense to plead you cause?
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Jesus gave no signs
by peacefulpete inaccording to mark 8:11-13 jesus was grieved even indignant at the request for some "sign".
had he not done many before and would he not do miraculous signs yet?
i propose (not original to me) that some early form of mark (urmark) or q contained no miracles.
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Narkissos
The secrecy of teaching in Mark doesn't seem to follow exactly the logic usually attributed to the secrecy of miracles.
In 4:10ff: When he was alone (kata monas), those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those outside (tois exô, cf. 3:31f), everything comes in parables; in order that 'they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.' "
V. 33f With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it; he did not speak to them except in parables, but he explained everything in private (kat'idian, cf. 6:31f; 7:33; 9:2,28; 13:3) to his disciples.
Whether this sheds light upon the secrecy of miracles in Mark or is a different motif may be discussed. The kat'idian expression belongs to both contexts, but this hardly proves anything. Whatever the case, I doubt the usual, general explanation of secrecy is correct, because the Gospel's ending doesn't suggest open proclamation as could have been expected. The literary device sounds ironical (or tragicomical): the repeated order not to divulge is regularly transgressed, and the order to divulge is not fulfilled (16:8). This could be related to the very (Gnostic?) nature of the Gospel in Mark (or, perhaps better, the intermediate form with Secret Mark redaction if this scenario is correct): a mystery that can be proclaimed without being disclosed.
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What will you say to God in your defense?
by fearnotruth22 in.
suppose god holds us accountable.
what will you say to him in your defense to plead you cause?
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Narkissos
As Job noted (13:20ff) much would depend of my state of mind (or soul):
Only grant two things to me,
then I will not hide myself from your face:
withdraw your hand far from me,
and do not let dread of you terrify me. Then call, and I will answer;
or let me speak, and you reply to me.
How many are my iniquities and my sins?
Make me know my transgression and my sin.
Why do you hide your face,
and count me as your enemy?
Will you frighten a windblown leaf
and pursue dry chaff?
For you write bitter things against me,
and make me reap the iniquities of my youth.
You put my feet in the stocks,
and watch all my paths;
you set a bound to the soles of my feet.
One wastes away like a rotten thing,
like a garment that is moth-eaten.So if I'm granted to be free from terror, we might have a good talk -- and perhaps a good laugh...
Btw, I misread the title of the thread into "What will you say in God's defense?" and was prepared to quote Stendhal: "God's best excuse is that he doesn't exist."
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"Immortal Soul" - A Watchtower Doctrine!
by Stephanus inin my 25 years or so in "christendom" i've been to many different churches in different denominations and have heard hundreds, perhaps thousands, of sermons.
in all that time i have never heard the term "immortal soul" used, not even once.
yet the jws go on (and on, and on!
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Narkissos
Actually, the official doctrine of larger churches (which may include immortal soul, hellfire and so on) is not repeated to people every week, and lay people are not supposed to be able to defend it -- lest teach it -- unto the last detail. That makes a big difference, with the practical consequence that members of any large church may have a very wide variety of beliefs whereas the official teaching of the church may be widely forgotten.
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Jehovah
by ScoobySnax ini don't think despite all my ups and downs, my worries, my insecurites, my trying to live life apart from that i really in my heart of hearts know to be right, that i could ever really lose my love for jehovah.
i just can't forget that what i once learnt.
it can't be undone.
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Narkissos
Scooby,
I think I understand your feelings.
My word is: let everything flow around, upon and within you as it has to -- ideas, beliefs, feelings, emotions, guilt, anxiety, even joy from times to times. Try to identify them, name them, and, yes, even enjoy them as they rub, often painfully, on this "part" of you that doesn't change (call it soul, memory, conscience or whatever).
I'm sure you know The night of the iguana, by John Huston. If you don't, I strongly recommend you see this movie as soon as possible...
Take care,
Narkissos
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Leaky Belly Button
by peacefulpete injohn 7:38 is a weird verse, " the one believing into me, as the scripture said," out of his belly/womb will flow rivers of living water.
" it claims to be quoting scripture, yet it certainly is not quoting directly any ot passage known.
the folowing is from a conversation at another forum.
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Narkissos
Other parallels:
In G John:
John 4:14 those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.
John 19:34 one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out. (Cf. 1John 5:6ff).
The notion may be "corrected" in GThomas 13:5: I am not your teacher. For you have drunk, you have become intoxicated at the bubbling spring that I have measured out.
In Prophetic literature:
Isaiah 58:11 The LORD will guide you continually, and satisfy your needs in parched places, and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters never fail.
In Wisdom literature:
Proverbs 18:4 The words of the mouth are deep waters; the fountain of wisdom is a gushing stream.
Cf. Job 32:18f for the belly (gastèr) as source of words.
About the womb:
Song of songs 4:12ff: A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. Your channel is an orchard of pomegranates with all choicest fruits, henna with nard, nard and saffron, calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, with all chief spices-- a garden fountain, a well of living water, and flowing streams from Lebanon.
About the rock/Christ analogy:
1 Corinthians 10:4: For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
(Similar analogy with Wisdom in Philo about "oil from the rock", Deuteronomy 32:13, in Quod deterius 115ff.)
About the rock/womb analogy
Isaiah 51:1f: Look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were dug.
Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you.Cf. also Job 1:21 for the identification of the mother's womb (birth) and earth (death).
About Jerusalem as navel of the world:
Psalm 87:5ff And of Zion it shall be said,
"This one and that one were born in it";
for the Most High himself will establish it.
The LORD records, as he registers the peoples,
"This one was born there."
Singers and dancers alike say,
"All my springs are in you."Cf. 46:5, and the mention of Gihôn, the sacred well of Jerusalem, among the rivers of Eden in Genesis 2...
Israel is the "navel of the earth" in Ezekiel 38:12; a similar expression is applied to Jerusalem in 5:5. This may be related to the river from the temple in chapter 47 (and Zechariah 14).
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Transference.
by Englishman indo you think that some newbie ex's transfer some of their hatred of the elders onto mods or board administrators?
are you aware of some newbie ex's having difficulties with policemen or teachers or doctors or others in authority because of this hatred of authority?
are some newbie ex's likely to have difficulty in obtaining permanent employment because of their obsession with authority figures?
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Narkissos
Interesting.
Personally I'm extremely suspicious about this kind of talk on "people having a problem with authority" -- as if it were a kind of pathology. Seems condescending to me. Symptomatic of my own lack of balance or immaturity, if you want.
I think authority always deserves to be questioned. And that "people having a problem with authority" are very useful to the society in general, no matter the practical consequences they suffer. The social advances in politics, labour and so on were always spearheaded by that type of persons.
A lot of people have left such feelings back in their teens, not because they are convinced that they live in the "best possible world", just because it's more comfortable in the long run being submissive.
Let me just add that these remarks are both personal and theoretical: I have not encountered any problem with this board's management so far, and if I do someday I know the way out...
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Do you still believe in God?
by IT Support ini'm a recent departee and am now re-evaluating all my previous beliefs and there's none more fundamental.
however, i'm not sure where to start: i'm sure i don't need to say there's an enormous amount of nonsense out there.
frankly, in spite of their other stupid teachings, i am considering reviewing again the articles in wt library as i think they do try to sincerely prove the existence of god.
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Narkissos
I would really like to be able to prove to myself, beyond all reasonable doubt, that... I haven't wasted the last half-century of my life...
Oh boy! I was not aware of that. I spent some 13 years with the WT and I think it was already far too much. Anyway, I guess every lifecourse has to be silly in some way ("vanity" as Qoheleth-Ecclesiastes has it) -- and yet wonderful. It reminds me the dying words of Bernanos' "Curé de campagne" ("Countryside Priest"): "What's the difference? All is grace."
do you have any suggestions for a "recent critical Bible introduction"?
In English, unfortunately no. But Euphemism or someone else may have. There was a recent thread on this board about "study Bibles". I wouldn't recommend the NIV Study Bible which is very fundamentalistic as far as introductions are concerned (not much more critical than the WT "All Scripture is Inspired" book). Perhaps there is something in the Anchor series (their Dictionary of the Bible has very good articles).
one of the things I'm really enjoying at the moment is reading novels, that I never had time to read before.
I read a lot of novels before and after leaving the WT. Many French ones of course, but I also enjoyed Hermann Hesse's works (another Pastor's son, just like Nietzsche...).
I don't understand your use again of being 'attracted to' one definition or another. Do you mean that, at the end of all your own reading, for you it all boiled down to your own personal preference?
Maybe I was not clear enough, or used the wrong English expression. Let me try it again:
I think most philosophers or theologians use the word "God" as a kind of mathematical unknown factor, an "x" which can be filled with almost any definition. That is already what the Johannine texts were doing when saying, for instance, "God is Spirit", "God is Light" or "God is Love". Such concepts of "God" are pretty unrelated to the common notion of "God" as Creator, Almighty, Supreme Judge, etc. In such "definitions" the word "God" is not used realistically, but metaphorically. The belief in the real existence of a divine being is not essential to them, rather the source of many misunderstandings, for in the minds of "believers" the common idea of "God" as Creator, Almighty or Judge always overrules whatever else may be metaphorically said of "God". (I'm afraid what I just wrote is only more obscure than what I wrote earlier, but who knows?)
So long,
Narkissos
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Greatest tribulation upon Judaism?
by peacefulpete infor jws and other fundementalists the destruction of jerusalem in 70ce is a unquestionably the fullfillment of the words in mark 13.19. however to see the city's leveling as the " tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now" as referring to death numbers we must surmise the death toll to have been horrific indeed!
josephus is of course oft quoted for the numbers.
according to him 97,000 were taken prisoner while 1,100,000 were killed.
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Narkissos
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/james.html
(I'll come back to Eisenman later...)
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I was wondering: Am I the only Belgian ex-member of the JW on this site?
by Prins Vaillant ini am still a newbee because i was a lurker for 6 years :) but in all those years i never saw one posting from a belgian ex-jw.
it would be so comforting to see somebody from my own area.
so i would like to address the belgians and ask them to reveal themselves to me.
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Narkissos
I know at least one: "motema bolingo" (check on "Member directory"). He seldom posts here but has a French-speaking site with a number of Belgian members...