Narkissos

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Posts by Narkissos

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  8

  Ohhh yea thats in the OT....

  by flower in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when people mention some of the atrocities and bizarre laws commanded by god in the bible, the most frequently used argument seems to be something to this effect .."thats in the old testament which is no longer binding for us today since jesus as the 'lamb' cleared away the need for its rules and regulations".

  however, i do not know where they get this idea other than from religious leaders (jw or otherwise) who spoon feed them that reasoning so that they can excuse the majority of evil that the bible promotes and so they can assign a kinder, more loving nature to god.. i find no proof that the ot should be ignored.

  even according to scriptures in the new testament the ot should be adhered to.

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  Narkissos

  Leolaia:

  I'm just back and start here (incredible how much you can miss when you're out of JWD for a few days!).

  This interpretation of the Law was, in comparison to the strict rules of the Pharisees, extremely liberal and followed what Jesus regarded as the "spirit of the Law" (as expressed in Leviticus 19:17-20 and Deuteronomy 6:5 which, in the view of many rabbis and Jewish-Christians, summed up the entire Torah) than the "letter of the Law"; thus the Jesus of the gospels repeatedly advocated "breaking" purity and Sabbath laws when they conflict with more important matters like social justice (e.g. the treatment of the poor, the hungry, the disabled), that is, where following the letter of the Law would conflict with showing love towards your neighbor -- the highest principle in the Torah. Thus they viewed themselves as still following the Law and did not believe that Jesus abolished the Law.

  I sincerely doubt the early judeo-christian sources which insisted on "fulfilling the Torah" would have regarded Jesus as "liberal" and the Pharisees as "strict". I suspect it was exactly the contrary: their Jesus, like John the Baptist and the Essenes, would dismiss the Pharisees' stance as hypocritical and overly accommodating. One echo of this view is Matthew 5:20:

  For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

  The repudiation sayings are a good example:

  "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

  The anomistic Jesus and his controversies against the halakha come from a quite different source, i.e. Hellenistic Judaism / Christianity, and are mostly introduced into the Gospels picture by Mark. Only when this portrayal of Jesus is mixed up with the positive Torah sayings do we have the notion of Jesus as a liberal rabbi with a lenient interpretation of the Torah.
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  8

  For ex- (or current heh heh) bethelites...

  by boa in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi all you former (or still in lurkers heh heh) bethelites.my question to you is: was your time in bethel the turning point in your jw life?

  if so, what was it that started you on your way out?

  boa 'bethel life was my key to the real life'

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  Narkissos

  Elsewhere: the most common jokes were rather harmless, about farfetched interpretation details or typical WT (actually Fred Franz's) phraseology... but not always.

  One case (not quite a joke, actually, but somewhat funny anyway) I well remember is about a 80's Watchtower commenting John chapter 10. M., the brother in charge of the Translation dept., was visiting the oldest member of the team, E. (who had translated the NWT into French and had learnt the Biblical languages for that task), who worked in a different place. Here's the conversation as M. related it to me later:

  M.: "By the way, E., there's something new in the last Watchtower about John 10."

  E.: "You don't say? So the "other sheep" are the Gentiles at last?"

  M.: "Oh no... not yet."

  E.: "Well, next time maybe..."

  I also remember when M. translated the Creation book and had to check many scientific references in extant French translations. He very often complained that the quotations were curtailed and taken out of context, and did show me quite outrageous examples.

  When I resigned from Bethel, I had a long conversation with M. I also met him when I was eventually disfellowshipped and came back to fetch the few things I had left in Bethel. Both times I felt he perfectly understood me, and even looked at me with some envy. I can still hear his words: "Anyway, all that I am and have, I owe it to the organization, so I stay loyal to it."

  I heard he later became the president of the national WT. A very nice and intelligent man though.
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  26

  What Do You Think Happens when YOU Die?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  do you still believe in death's unconsciousness?

  do you think we must live on somewhere, somehow?

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  Narkissos

  The sun rises for a bright new day. Birds screech and quarrel over a few crumbs. The nearby river gently flows.

  I am not part of it anymore. The world doesn't miss me as it didn't miss me before I was born. I don't miss it either. "I" am not any longer. But I have been.

  A few people do miss me though. In time my very "absence" will vanish. Only what I have given to them -- most of which I have first received from others -- will remain, peacefully I hope, in their thoughts, gestures or words, as an unnoticed track or signature. I have been for them. I was a part of it all. But I am not anymore. The burden and joy of "I" is theirs as they have been mine.

  Immortal soul, resurrection, are but metaphors for the continuing flow of life, people and language.
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  8

  For ex- (or current heh heh) bethelites...

  by boa in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi all you former (or still in lurkers heh heh) bethelites.my question to you is: was your time in bethel the turning point in your jw life?

  if so, what was it that started you on your way out?

  boa 'bethel life was my key to the real life'

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  Narkissos

  Bethel (in France, 1981-1985) was certainly a turning point for me. I had been baptized at 13 when part of my family became JWs. I left high school at 16 to pioneer. At 18 I was a special pioneer, at 20 a MS, and so on. For years I didn't read anything except the Bible and WT literature.

  When I came to Bethel I was surprised to find many young people there who had been "born in the Truth" and who were actually much more open-minded than I had been. Some of them were reading a lot and had a number of interesting hobbies (such as astronomy or mountain-climbing). Another good thing is I had to preach and teach much less and was obliged to think a little more.

  I soon was assigned to the Translation dept. To enhance my writing abilities I felt the need to read good (i.e. not-WT) French, and I started reading a number of novels and essays (some of them, pretty good, recommended to me by other Bethel members). Dealing with the details of WT literature as a translator also made me aware of a number of logical flaws -- they were, in fact, a common joking subject among translators.

  I translated the Watchtower during several years and a large part of the Aid book (in a censored edition as Raymond Franz had recently been disfellowshipped). As I was very interested in the Bible, I started studying Hebrew and Greek by myself. We also had a small group studying the weekly TMS Bible portions using non-WT Bible commentaries.

  One day when I was working in the Bethel Library a good friend of mine started a discussion about the "ransom" doctrine. She was a DO's daughter and had been "raised in the truth", but she just couldn't understand why it was necessary for Jesus to die for us. I was quite shocked and began rehearsing the common WT crap, at the same time feeling how meaningless that was. This was the start of a series of incredibly free discussions, involving several persons in Bethel. I started to read the NT with different eyes. A few weeks later I submitted my resignation. And another few months later I was disfellowshipped for "apostasy"...

  Had I not been in Bethel I would perhaps still be a good pioneer today...
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  32

  My DA, Front page of daily paper, OCR of article

  by garybuss in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  argus leader, sioux falls, south dakota, tuesday, jan. 23, 1996. page 1. .

  by carson walker.

  argus leader staff.

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  Narkissos

  Gosh. Awful story.

  Gary, I'm sure you have opened many eyes.

  Take care,

  Narkissos
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  6

  Silvanus

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is more of an inquiry than anything else.

  the character silvanus has largely gone unnoticed in modern times yet he seems to have been a notable man in the formative years of xtianity.

  1 thess and 2 thess both open with the identical words, claiming the letters were from paul, silvanus and timothy.

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  Narkissos

  I mistyped [Silas < Sila < Se'ila']... But thinking of it -- what a convenient name for [Sha'ul > Saulos = Paul]'s missionary twin...
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  17

  Christianity and The Hebrew Bible

  by DevonMcBride in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what you were never told by your church and your pastor

  pastor craig lyons, m.div.

  the readers of this article will be shown comparisons of scriptural passages taken both from the hebrew bible and various christian bible translations.

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  Narkissos

  An interesting site on the Septuagint, featuring links to online editions and translations:

  http://students.cua.edu/16kalvesmaki/lxx/
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  17

  Christianity and The Hebrew Bible

  by DevonMcBride in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what you were never told by your church and your pastor

  pastor craig lyons, m.div.

  the readers of this article will be shown comparisons of scriptural passages taken both from the hebrew bible and various christian bible translations.

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  Narkissos

  OK, it's too late (in France!) for a detailed answer, but a very broad one is this:

  As a general rule the Greek NT writers just COULD NOT use a Hebrew text. Their quotations were taken from a JEWISH GREEK translation (Septuagint = LXX), most often not directly from a LXX manuscript but through anthologies which could include further (yet still JEWISH) interpretations also reflected in JEWISH extra-canonical literature. Of course the CHRISTIAN writers used this material as it seemed to suit their goals, but they just were not responsible for all the differences.

  Another element to keep in mind is that the Tanakh you quote is based on 10th or 11th century Hebrew manuscripts, and that it does not always reflect the oldest Hebrew texts (as the Qumran manuscripts have often shown).
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  15

  Isn't God missing the devil?

  by Narkissos in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  some time ago i started a (short) thread entitled ?how important is the devil to god?

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/63454/1.ashx

  i?d like to address the same question from a slightly different angle.

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  Narkissos

  Sorry for asking such silly questions!

  What I meant is this: historical monotheism emerged from (Persian) dualism and soon fell back into dualism. In Western thought moral dualism even survived monotheism. Can we face reality without dualistic lens? That was, perhaps, Nietzsche's deepest question, ironically put into the mouth of Zarathustra -- the original prophet of dualism.

  Did the idea of God beyond good and bad, which was Second Isaiah's creation, survive somewhere? IMO the Sadducees would be pretty good candidates -- unfortunately, they didn't leave many writings (perhaps Qoheleth?). There is also the rabbinical interpretation of loving God with all one's heart as meaning with one's good and bad inclinations. The cynic overtones of Q could perhaps meet the challenge, if they were taken out of their traditional Christian interpretation as summum bonum:

  I say to you, do not resist evil.

  I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

  Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.

  The Beelzebul controversy (which may actually be common to Q and Mark) builds on an aporia of dualism: the Kingdom of God breaks through where Satan expels Satan...

  And the recurrent insistence of GThomas on "making the two one" might also point to a possible overcoming of dualism (quite differently from later full-fledged Gnosticism)...

  Random thoughts... What actually is at stake, of course, is not "God" or "the devil", but the way we consider the world, ourselves and other people.
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  6

  Silvanus

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is more of an inquiry than anything else.

  the character silvanus has largely gone unnoticed in modern times yet he seems to have been a notable man in the formative years of xtianity.

  1 thess and 2 thess both open with the identical words, claiming the letters were from paul, silvanus and timothy.

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  2. 
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  Narkissos

  Silas (Greek form of Aramaic Siba?) in Acts, Silvanus (Latin) in Pauline / postPauline tradition... are they the same?

  Are they distinguished in the Hypotyposes of Clement Alexandrinus as quoted by Eusebius (which also distinguishes Peter and Cephas)?

  The mention of Silvanus in 1 Peter 5:12 seems to be part of a Roman addition (mentioning also "Babylon" and "Mark").

  Btw, in Acts 16:37s Silas seems to be a Roman citizen as well as Paul...

  Could this character be a Roman signature into the texts?

  Enigmatic indeed.