Posts by Narkissos

35

Is Jehovah an invention of Jewish imagination??? The fact seem obvious!

by frankiespeakin in

yes, if we think of god as a "transcendant" above everything and then when we think of the biblical jehovah, we come up short 51 cards of a deck of 52.

he is so human,,,, come on,,,,, that to me is proof enough of the preposition that he is just the:

"figment of the jewish imagination"

Narkissos

Carmel: I guess Zoroaster, although never mentioned in the O.T., was indirectly instrumental in Yhwh's becoming God. After all, most of the OT was written or rewritten under Persian rule. Only over against Zoroastrian dualism the first and last emergence of real monotheism in Second Isaiah makes sense (45:7):

I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I Yhwh do all these things.

I wrote "first and last", because Jewish monotheism soon fell back into practical dualism in the Persian mood, with the constitution of Satan as an anti-God (very similar to the Persian Angra Mainyu), culminating in the radical opposition of the "spirit of light" and the "spirit of darkness" in the Qumran texts (actually, the previous Persian innovation appeared as defensive orthodoxy under the new cultural threat of Hellenism).

Aside from that, I agree that a very large part of the world remained "God-free" to this very day, and this remains the biggest challenge to monotheism.

35

Is Jehovah an invention of Jewish imagination??? The fact seem obvious!

by frankiespeakin in

yes, if we think of god as a "transcendant" above everything and then when we think of the biblical jehovah, we come up short 51 cards of a deck of 52.

he is so human,,,, come on,,,,, that to me is proof enough of the preposition that he is just the:

"figment of the jewish imagination"

Narkissos

IMHO Israel's Yhwh was quite a decent god (mind the lower case). Benevolent and righteous king to his own, fierce warrior to their enemies.

The ultimate fate of every national god in history eventually happened to him: he was defeated. But then something unexpected occurred in the minds of his priests and scribes: instead of fading away as every good god does in such circumstances, he became God (mind the capital). The Only One. The One actually responsible, not only for the fall of Jerusalem, but the victory of Nebuchadnezzar, and Cyrus -- and eventually every event in the world, and the world itself. He was not prepared to that. In this new position he felt quite ashamed of his old mythological accomplishments -- when he was just a god playing with his peers and humans. Now he was just too great to play. He was condemned, as a lifelong sentence, to a desperately serious, boring and lonely task: theology to death.

8

Holy mountains in Canaanite myth and the Bible

by Leolaia in

baal's mountain: mount casius

baal's mountain was biblical zaphon, known in ugaritic as sapan, in hittite and hurrian as mount hazzi, in akkadian as ba'lisapuna, in greek and latin as casius (< kasios), and in modern arabic as jebel 'el-aqra', which stands at a height of 5,660 ft. about 25 miles north of ras shamra and 2.5 miles from the coast.

i will climb to the top of thunderclouds, i will rival elyon ('l'wn).

Narkissos

Another parallel:

Mortal, raise a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him: You consider yourself a lion among the nations, but you are like a dragon in the seas; you thrash about in your streams, trouble the water with your feet, and foul your streams. Thus says the Lord GOD:
In an assembly of many peoples I will throw my net over you; and I will haul you up in my dragnet. I will throw you on the ground, on the open field I will fling you, and will cause all the birds of the air to settle on you, and I will let the wild animals of the whole earth gorge themselves with you. I will strew your flesh on the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land with your flowing blood up to the mountains, and the watercourses will be filled with you. When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens, and make their stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light. All the shining lights of the heavens I will darken above you, and put darkness on your land, says the Lord GOD. -- Ezekiel 32:2ff

The same imagery recurs in 39:4ff,17ff about the banquet on Gog's carcass, on the mountains of Israel...

20

Canaanite legend quoted in 2 Samuel 1:21?

by Leolaia in

the legend of aqhat, one of the great epic myths preserved in the ugaritic archive at ras shamra, was popular in some form in israel and judah and shows its traces in the ot and later jewish literature.

ezekiel 14:12-20, 28:1-3 makes several passing references to the legend and its hero, an ancient semi-divine king named danel renowned for his wisdom and healing powers.

danel was one of the rephaim, a primeval race of demigod kings who linger on as spirits in sheol and who were revered by the canaanites in ancestor worship (cf.

Narkissos

Perhaps this would shed further light on the title of the poem, if qesheth ("bow") is to be so understood in 2 Samuel 1:18... The reference, in the same verse, to the "Book of the Just" (sepher hayyashar) is also interesting: a Hebrew version of Canaanite epics perhaps? The only other occurrence is in Joshua 10:12f about the "sun standing still"...

3

Manna miraculous powers?

by peacefulpete in

this brief comment has been discused before but hey it's a slow week.

ps 78:23-25 says that the 'manna' that the israelites ate in the story was the food of the gods/powerful spirits.

of course various mythologies describe humans seek or eating food of the gods for miraculous powers of wisdom or immortality.

Narkissos

An interesting parallel is "Elijah in Horeb", in 1 Kings 19:4ff. Not "manna", but "bread from heaven" with apparently miraculous sustaining power:

But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a solitary broom tree. He asked that he might die: "It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life, for I am no better than my ancestors." Then he lay down under the broom tree and fell asleep. Suddenly an angel touched him and said to him, "Get up and eat." He looked, and there at his head was a cake baked on hot stones, and a jar of water. He ate and drank, and lay down again. The angel of the LORD came a second time, touched him, and said, "Get up and eat, otherwise the journey will be too much for you." He got up, and ate and drank; then he went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb the mount of God.

Of course, being fed in the wilderness is a recurrent motif, from Genesis (Hagar) to Revelation...

About manna proper, the tradition of Wisdom 16:20ff is quite interesting for its miraculous powers are developed as a commentary of Exodus 16, Numbers 11 and Deuteronomy 8 (it suits every taste); the melting of manna under the sun is also contrasted to the hail plague (involving fire, in the form of lightning, and ice):

Instead of these things you gave your people food of angels, and without their toil you supplied them from heaven with bread ready to eat, providing every pleasure and suited to every taste. For your sustenance manifested your sweetness toward your children; and the bread, ministering to the desire of the one who took it, was changed to suit everyone's liking. Snow and ice withstood fire without melting, so that they might know that the crops of their enemies were being destroyed by the fire that blazed in the hail and flashed in the showers of rain; whereas the fire, in order that the righteous might be fed, even forgot its native power. For creation, serving you who made it, exerts itself to punish the unrighteous, and in kindness relaxes on behalf of those who trust in you. Therefore at that time also, changed into all forms, it served your all-nourishing bounty, according to the desire of those who had need, so that your children, whom you loved, O Lord, might learn that it is not the production of crops that feeds humankind but that your word sustains those who trust in you. For what was not destroyed by fire was melted when simply warmed by a fleeting ray of the sun, to make it known that one must rise before the sun to give you thanks, and must pray to you at the dawning of the light; for the hope of an ungrateful person will melt like wintry frost, and flow away like waste water.

8

Holy mountains in Canaanite myth and the Bible

by Leolaia in

baal's mountain: mount casius

baal's mountain was biblical zaphon, known in ugaritic as sapan, in hittite and hurrian as mount hazzi, in akkadian as ba'lisapuna, in greek and latin as casius (< kasios), and in modern arabic as jebel 'el-aqra', which stands at a height of 5,660 ft. about 25 miles north of ras shamra and 2.5 miles from the coast.

i will climb to the top of thunderclouds, i will rival elyon ('l'wn).

Narkissos

Thanks a lot Leolaia...

Your comment on Job 26:7 is especially illuminating in view of the anachronical, out-of-context way it is used by JWs and others.

About the "divine mountain(s)" / "rivers" connection, I wonder if the Masoretic text of Psalm 87:7 has not been too hastily dismissed by many translators: "All my springs are in you" does make sense in Zion "founded on the holy mountains" (v. 1), depicted as the birth place of all peoples (v. 6), curiously beginning with Rahab (v. 4)...

37

Are JW's embarrassed by faith in Jesus?

by eyeslice in

i think i posted the fact that i suddenly stopped attending all the meetings, field service and all, very suddenly.

not a single meeting this year.

i guess i would describe myself now as a sort of little toe guy, a liberal christian.. of course, i have had all the elder visits asking me how i am doing etc.

Narkissos

Eyeslice:

I don't want to be disfellowshipped for apostasy, too many of my family still in, yet at the same time I don't want my leaving to be seen as an issue of my personal lack of integrity or spirituality. It is too easy for them to brush aside people like me as ?bad eggs? they are well shot of. I take the line that I am a very spiritual person who is struggling with a lot of what the Society teaches and does. I want to make it clear that my leaving has to do with the fact that there are fundamental principles that they should espouse, like Jesus is Lord, that aren?t practiced by the Society.

The course you describe is (or at least was, 20 years ago) just the surest way to being "disfellowshipped for apostasy".

When they come to think your case is lost, you will find the nice, understanding elders coming back to you as a judicial committee with a preset list of questions for you to answer with yes or no. Then you're done.

37

Are JW's embarrassed by faith in Jesus?

by eyeslice in

i think i posted the fact that i suddenly stopped attending all the meetings, field service and all, very suddenly.

not a single meeting this year.

i guess i would describe myself now as a sort of little toe guy, a liberal christian.. of course, i have had all the elder visits asking me how i am doing etc.

Narkissos

Very true.

In my last congregation (1986), when I was first summoned by the elders they introduced the discussion saying: "We've noticed you're talking a lot about Jesus." In their minds "a lot" obviously meant "too much"; I asked how such a thing could be possible in a NT perspective. I can still remember their stare when I quoted 1 John 2:23 (NW):

Everyone that denies the Son does not have the Father either. He that confesses the Son has the Father also.

Quite ironically, my next meeting with them was the judicial committee which checked my (non-)beliefs on a list of different subjects (1914, the "two hopes", etc.) and yet disfellowshipped me on the grounds of 2 John 9-11:

Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

8

Ohhh yea thats in the OT....

by flower in

jw
friends

when people mention some of the atrocities and bizarre laws commanded by god in the bible, the most frequently used argument seems to be something to this effect .."thats in the old testament which is no longer binding for us today since jesus as the 'lamb' cleared away the need for its rules and regulations".

however, i do not know where they get this idea other than from religious leaders (jw or otherwise) who spoon feed them that reasoning so that they can excuse the majority of evil that the bible promotes and so they can assign a kinder, more loving nature to god.. i find no proof that the ot should be ignored.

even according to scriptures in the new testament the ot should be adhered to.

Narkissos

LOL @ Flower & Steve!

"Q" is just the traditional symbol (from German Quelle = "Source") for the very probable yet hypothetical document which lies behind the texts common to Matthew and Luke which do not come from Mark. Actually, Flower, you were quoting from Q!

(http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/)

To put it more simply, there are texts in the N.T. which interpret Jesus' faith as the best way to fulfill the Torah (Q) and others which interpret it as breaking away from the Torah (Paul).

Just what is meant by "fulfilling the Torah" is the question... I personally tend to agree with you and think that the first Judeo-Christians (more accurately Nazoreans) did mean applying the whole Torah, including ritualistic issues (such as Sabbath or circumcision).

74

Why does it have to be gay "marriage?"

by spiritwalker in

jw
friends

i know this a hot topic, but i had some thinking on it i wanted to discuss.

to begin, i have nothing against a gay man or lesbian woman and consider many to be friends.

i would also like to express from the beginning in plain thought, "i think gay unions should be legal and do not see why it matters.".

Narkissos

Imho "marriage" (tm) as a religious/social institution has to be deconstructed/criticized from a number of angles. Even aside of the gay issue it has been the cause of much hypocrisy and unhappiness (divorced parents' child speaking), just because love and sex cannot be limited to any legal frame -- as we ALL know.

Of course discrimination has to be fought off. And I can understand the insistence on gay "marriage" in a very religious and moralistic society. However, I doubt this can be the solution -- just because gay marriage is not likely to be anymore realistic as an institution than traditional marriage. As far as I know, French gays do not insist so much on it as long as they have their practical rights acknowledged (in matters like taxes, successions, and so forth). The right to adopt children is a far more important and sensitive issue, but it doesn't have to be linked to any form of legal union (any single adult could just adopt a child regardless of his/her sex life if he/she is in a material and psychological position to care for him/her).

Whatever the case, times are changing, and I'm glad they are.