Posts by Agape

19

Resurrection... to what TYPE of body?

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

there is a bit of a debate about the resurrection, and to what type of body people will be resurrected to.

it is quite simple, and encompasses two resurrections: the 'first' resurrection... and the general resurrection.. 1. the 'first' resurrection -.

Resurrection... to what TYPE of body?

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

there is a bit of a debate about the resurrection, and to what type of body people will be resurrected to.

it is quite simple, and encompasses two resurrections: the 'first' resurrection... and the general resurrection.. 1. the 'first' resurrection -.

I am not at all clear about the responses that you have received on this most interesting topic, the resurrection. Some of the above are outright non-responsive to the subject. Perhaps I am not aware of some relations between you and those other folks. But, for all I hear about how non-judgemental this site is, I'd say there are a few people here lacking a nuturing spirit. Or maybe it is I who judges incorrectly.

Agape

19

Resurrection... to what TYPE of body?

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

there is a bit of a debate about the resurrection, and to what type of body people will be resurrected to.

it is quite simple, and encompasses two resurrections: the 'first' resurrection... and the general resurrection.. 1. the 'first' resurrection -.

Agape

I cannot help but notice that your interpretation of the resurrection is quite "orthodox" sounding. I would venture to guess that you are not presently an active Witness, am I wrong?

Do you equate being raised a spiritual body with lacking a tangible, physical body? For a long time I could not figure out why the exclusion of the physical aspect of the risen body of Christ, until I found C.T. Russel's description of how it was that the prophecy of 1874 regarding the eminent return of Jesus in 1878 did not turn out as predicted.

You see, to avoid being a false prophet, he called Jehovah a liar by accepting, and later teaching, the theory that Jesus' return would be spiritual, invisable, and decernable only by those with "eyes of understanding". In short, Russel chose to change doctrine rather than change himself.

If I read you correctly, we agree that in the coming resurrection, our bodies will be made not only perfect but capable of going beyond time and space. Where I am not so sure that we agree is that those spiritual bodies will indeed be bodies that are tactile, touchable bodies, capable of everything we as humans do.

Jesus was not the con-artist that the WTS and Russel would have us believe. When raised from the dead, he did not deceptively say to Thomas, "Touch me, feel me, see me eat, observe my wounds, put your hand in my side; if you were seeing just a spirit you would not be able to do these things.

In short, a lie to save both face and a date is behind the false teaching that renders Jesus' physical resurrection a mear spiritual recreation, and the risk of contradicting the fact that the man Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, and that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Read for yourself the Watchtower article from Feb. 1881, p.188, where it is asserted, "Examination revealed the fact, that Jesus since his resurrection is a totally different being from the Jesus who died." Only by ignoring or twisting the scriptures can such doctrines of demons be taught and preserved. May you ears not be tickled by such errors.

Respectfully submitted,

Agape

72

Adoption by Jehovah's Witnesses is blocked

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

adoption by jehovah's witnesses is blocked .

the independent - united kingdom; may 26, 2001. by brian farmer.

a couple originally approved by a council as adoptive parents have been refused permission by social workers to adopt a child, because they are jehovah's witnesses.

Agape

Since the issue of blood transfusion alone makes JWs "worse than Waco" and "worse than Jonestown", I would support creating legal constraints on adoption by JWs. Taking the position as they do against life-saving medical procedures, such as transfusion, automatically disqualifies JWs from being legitimate candidates for becoming adoptive parents. Sincere as they may be, they are sincerely wrong on this issue (and many others).

Feel sorry for JWs? Yes, but not for anything other than that they are duped.

13

Are they looking for "Rice Christians"?

by Gopher in

jw
friends

i'm trying to get a clear "take" on this:.

the wts has often implied that their form of missionary work, concentrating on "preaching and teaching", is superior to that of christendom's.

christendom often starts out by bringing food supplies, hospitals and the like, supposedly "enticing" the natives with material goodies.

Agape

Goppppher, (oopps) I know you're just "sorting things out", but if you want a short-cut to your spiritual desktop, try taking everything the WTS says and teaches, turn nearly 180 degrees, and take what results as accurate. This technique applied to such topics as blood, resurrection, the true identity of Jesus and others will save you so much time and effort. With the left over time, you will be able to reach out more effectively to those still ensnared in the Truth.

Are you to the point yet of embracing the legitimacy of historical christianity? Be carefull, Russell warned that when you go to the Bible alone you are liable to wind up with the very same doctrines as Christendom. I want to celibrate with you when that other foot is alllllll the waaaaaaaaay out.

God bless,

Agape

16

MEDICAL Expertise of the Watchtower.

by Focus in

jw
friends

"can the ethiopian change his skin color?

"stupid children require attention for a different reason.

drink a full glass of water both before and after the bath.

Agape

Focus,
I just noticed that the material you posted (above) was submitted from one "Prominent Bethelite". In any case, have you posted any other of his writings? Will you in the future? Thanks again for this most interesting reading. Not knowing its length, I pushed print, and 59 pages later.....

Agape

16

MEDICAL Expertise of the Watchtower.

by Focus in

jw
friends

"can the ethiopian change his skin color?

"stupid children require attention for a different reason.

drink a full glass of water both before and after the bath.

Agape

Dear Focus,

What a nice job of compiling the...ah...record of medical expertise that has so adorned the pages of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's publications over the years. Were it not so serious a matter it would be laughable. The Society is by far responsible for more deaths-perhaps per year- than David Koresh (sp?) and Jim Jones-perhaps combined.

What pray tell is your position regarding the deity of Christ Jesus. I have a anecdotal theory that there has not been a single accurate portrayal of the orthodox position on this matter from the Society in any of its anti-trinitarian writings. Hence, straw-man argumentation, and your ending quote about a religion that lies is not to be trusted is appropriate.

Anxious to hear from you.

David Solberg
"Agape"
[email protected]

8

The Trinity: Divine or Demonic?

by Agape in

as a non-x-witness, what do you folks think of the concept of one god in three persons?

some of you probably still have a hard time with it, as did raymmond franz, former governing body member.

nonetheless, the claims made by the bible itself seems conclusive enough upon close examination.. so why do recovering jws not question everything outright, rather than slowly, incrementally replacing doctrines.

Agape

This is a reply to Logical. Hope it helps.I agree Jesus is more than human, but he is certainly much better (qualitative) than the angels, for to what angels did God the Father ever say.....Col.1-2

Jesus is Jehovah, consisting of three persons, the Son Ghost and the Father. Did the Almighty lie when he said "I alone stretched forth the heavens and the earth?" Is he wrong to say, "Aside from Me there is no other Savior, Rock, Redeemer, Holy One.....no not one!"

OT Jehovah speaks of their unity "Come let us make man in our image." The NT delineates the persons and functions within that unity. To what angel did Jehovah ever say, "If you do not acknowledge my Son, you do not have me." We are all adopted sons, but Jesus is God from God, just as an elephant offspring would be an elephant.

In the end, Log, your argument against the deity of Christ is in spite of your lack of understanding the concept, not because you understand so well that you can see where its logic fails. Your supposed counterpoints are just straw-man arguments, lacking any substance.

I could not do as well a job putting forth your position as you do, but I know your position better than you know mine. For instance, if you understood (not necessarily agreed with) the reasons for our belief on this issue, you would not have asked that last question which implies that we somehow think that at one time Jehovah was not Jesus, but rather later Jehovah became a part of Jesus and the Spirit. We believe, and I'm sorry but you should know this, that Jesus said and meant that before Abraham was, "I AM". Boy, the Pharisees sure understood that direct claim to deity and hence eternal existence. Jesus is the same yesterday (eternity), today, and forever.

It is your theology which makes man true and God a liar. Jesus is somehow Michael first, then He becomes Jesus, and then Michael once again. Of course, there is (present tense) only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus. Not the arch angel Michael, Jesus. He took on humanity, but did not consider it robbery to retain his deity at the same time. That is certainly what the virgin birth is all about, God begetting a Son full of deity to become man.

He created, he holds all things by his power, he can be in more than one place at one time, knows our hearts, forgives sins, shall be the Judge of mankind, has the name higher than all names, is the same Lord of Lords, King of Kings, First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, Savior, Rock, Redeemer, Holy One, that the OT Jehovah claims is only found in himself and no other, the same Jah who declares that he will never share His glory, honor and praise with any other being.

That premise at least should nudge you to ask, how can there be more than one being that is given all those honorary names, titles and worship and not hold Jah to his monotheistic OT words?......Unless.....just maybe......the Father and the Son and the Spirit are so much one that Jehovah is not wrong to say boldly, "The Lord your God is one." "I am the Lord your God, and besides me there is no other God/Savior/Rock/Redeemer." To what creature did Jah ever encourage us to repose our ultimate trust and faith, to the point of heeding Jesus' plea "Come to me, those who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?"

If, in the end, I am wrong to give Jesus such high elevation and esteem, then I will submit to you that there is greater danger in not giving Him enough than in giving Him too much. "IF YOU DO NOT HONOR ME, THEN I WILL NOT HONOR YOU TO MY FATHER IN HEAVEN" I'm sure if Jah shares his names and honor and glory with the other two, yet says in the OT he would not give such to any other creature, surely Jesus IS Jehovah, and not some infinitely lowly creature (as compared to the Almighty)

Somehow, "In the name of the infinite Father, and of the created angel/man/angel mortal, and the powerful electric (?) force that you should be careful not to hurt its feelings, Amen and Amen" just does not seem to cut it.

I dare say, if you allowed yourself to be indwelled by the Spirit that cares about you and loves you, He would see to it that you know the truth about these issue and all the rest. Crafty lies are at work here, admittedly in either you or I. But I know that my rejection of your, and my attachment to these orthodox views, is done so only after really studying and understanding WHY you believe as you do-- the support and rationale for those interpretations. Only then could I say, both by process of elimination and by attraction of the Holy Spirit (not Satan, I believe), that "here I stand. I can do no other", as Martin Luther did.

There is an old book, written by an man named Henry Bickersteath, simply called The Trinity, in which he sets forth the logic for this oft misunderstood doctrine. He wrote it because there was an uprising of "cult" activity under the name of Unitarians in Britain, and he had a broken heart for these people.

If you would like to if nothing else know how to better defend and/or share your personal beliefs, you will not regret reading this book. The outline is simple.

That in the O and NT alike, the Bible:

forbids us to trust in any created being
delineates the infinite gap betwixt the created and the Creator
describes the awful jealousy that consumes the Almighty regarding his names, his praise and worship, and glory
commands that Jesus be trusted with our very lives and souls
declares Jesus higher than the angels, that he be called the sacred names of God, do the things that only God could do,
and that he be honored as only God should be.

I do this from memory, but let the book speak for itself. I have read scores of "your'" and others' books, and they only strengthen my beliefs, not because I twist their meaning, but rather because I accurately understand the foundations for those tightly-held beliefs. An implosion of an old building requires study of its foundations and well-place charges. You know where I'm headed with that. Lastly, it is a sign of respect to learn your enemy. Jesus was good at listening, and it disarmed those who would otherwise be defensive. Patton studied Rommel's books on tank tactics and was he ever glad he did.

Jesus knew Satan very well and, arguably, could therefore be wise to some of the wiley schemes that were thrown His way. If you are right, you are going to need to know a lot more of my position to reason me out of it. And if I am wrong I need YOU to bone up on these things!!! Likewise, I have you at the heart of this present endeavor. I pray that you will come to regard the name of Jesus as the name above all names, without parenthetical interjection (i.e.. no "all other" insertions).

I love you because I should, because He loved me first, and because He loves you...So under some of that intensity of yours is a (relatively) good and earnest person that is worth every effort this humble vessel can put forth. So it is with agape love that hopefully permeates this treatise that I sign

Respectfully Yours-

David Solberg
[email protected].

8

The Trinity: Divine or Demonic?

by Agape in

as a non-x-witness, what do you folks think of the concept of one god in three persons?

some of you probably still have a hard time with it, as did raymmond franz, former governing body member.

nonetheless, the claims made by the bible itself seems conclusive enough upon close examination.. so why do recovering jws not question everything outright, rather than slowly, incrementally replacing doctrines.

Agape

As a non-x-witness, what do you folks think of the concept of one God in three persons? Some of you probably still have a hard time with it, as did Raymmond Franz, former Governing Body member. Nonetheless, the claims made by the Bible itself seems conclusive enough upon close examination.

So why do recovering JWs not question everything outright, rather than slowly, incrementally replacing doctrines. There is hardly a single issue of faith and doctrine that is reliable and trustworthy that comes from that dictatorship known as The Society.

Why not begin the truth process by assuming every teaching and belief to be faulty unless otherwise proven sound. If a law officer catches a suspect not being truthful in any one part of his testimony, the offcer will question the validity of the suspect's entire testimony. Why any different with TWBTS?

For many of you, it is not just one, isolated untruth or inconsistancy. In fact, once allowing yourself the first doubt, others just seemed to flow out. C.T. Russel once wrote that he found when one "who has been in the Truth" reads the Bible alone, he tends to end up believing in the very doctrines of Christendom. AMEN, Brother Russel. HELLO, anyone home? ......(pardon the sarchastic tone)

JW's are told they have a unity, but is it not rather a comformity diquised as unity. Conversely, Christendom has for the most part been consistent on the major issues, and has formed various demoninations over disagreements about the minor issues.

This is all to say, while the teachings and foundational beliefs of the WTBS in the short one hundred some year has not remained constant, the tenents of Christondom barely have moved over the past two thousand years.

I encourage all of you to question every single doctrine in your belief system, not just the ones that have hit you over the head. Be "proactive" and serch out the other numerous inconsistencies and inaccuracies that you suspect may be out there. "What else is there" should be a popular question you ask yourself.

No better place to begin than to ask who Jesus really was, and is, and is to come. That question alone has an answer that is both sufficent and necessary to be rescued from sim (ie. saved, redeemed, justified, borm again, etc.) Moreover, that is really what the scriptures as a whole are forcused on uncovering. The Deity of Christ Jesus is waiting for you. He may find you, but you need to be actively "looking" for Him.

There are very convincing reasons to acknowledge Jesus as being more than just a mear human. Write me and ask, and I will answer in love, compassion, and humility, and yet with boldness as one who has been endowed with great tiding of joy.

I look forward to your responses and/or questions.

David S.

9

hi everyone

by freddi in

i am new to this site.

i will take mommy's advice and write a bit about myself before i start posting so that you can have an idea of who i am and what i am about.

i used to attend the kingdom hall about 12 yrs.

Agape

Hi Fredi,

You are not a rare case, sorry to say. I see that you are not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Jehovah, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit love you as one. There is a plan for you to paricipate in His will for this world. Stick with it. My wife did, and she is glad she did not turn away from the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, and the Alpha and the Omega- the one who was, and is, and is to come...the One whose name is above all others, to Whom all knees shall bow and every tongue confess. A God that cannot be fully understood, but by faith can be obeyed and thru grace can be trusted, is the True God of the Bible, not the one found in the writings of mear uninspired men in New York, created out of human machinations or fancy, but rather the great I AM who I AM.

Take Him or leave Him is a recovering JW's only choice. Knowing and comprehending Him accurately is all anyone should hope for. You can do it if that is your heart's desire. He is a reader of hearts. That may explain why you are now free of that evil empire.

Best wishes, and welcome to the real Christianity, the one with Christ Jesus at its center.

David S.