Posts by AhHah

41

Ecce Homo -- John 19:5

by rabotnik in

are there any former jws who have come out as gay or lesbian?

if so, were you disfellowshipped?

and how did your family react?

AhHah

Rabotnik and xgayjw,

I am sort of new here again, but I was glad to see this post and I would like to jump in. I had been hoping to see this discussed for some time now.

Although I don't feel any sexual attraction to men, I do have a sister who has been in a same sex relationship for several years now. She also was raised in the JW faith, married young, husband did not provide any emotional support or even real friendship, and she later became involved in a relationship with her girlfriend (also a JW and a pioneer.) This contributed to her divorce from her husband, being disfellowshipped, and tragically, she and her girlfriend attempted suicide together, as they could not bear to face their guilt, their families, and their friends (all JWs). They were found by a concerned neighbor who helped them get to a hospital (they had overdosed on pills). They both lived and are still together after several years. They seem very happy together now, and have a good relationship.

Once I began to leave the JW faith (a couple of years ago), I started really reaching out to my sister and her partner. (to be continued, my computer just crashed)

OK. Where was I?

I have since then began to view homosexuality differently. I previously ascribed to the fudamentalist (JW) view. I have begun to realize that many homosexuals have very positive, supportive relationships, and that many, if not most, did not choose their sexual orientation. I now seriously doubt that a loving God would condemn practicing homosexuals to eternal damnation, or no resurrection or whatever.

Even if homosexuality is not part of God's plan for mankind (assuming there even is one), or part of his moral code, I don't understand how many so-called Christians single it out as somehow more reprehensible than any other conduct listed as a disqualification from salvation. Why do many feel justified in smugly singling them out for judgement? No doubt the Bible is a big reason, but many others acts are equally condemned there. I personally do not feel obligated to accept those scriptural condemnations as from God, nor many other parts of the Greek scriptures, which I feel invalidate Christianity as practiced by Christ himself, and the concept of a loving God. I have seen the alternate meanings offered for those scriptures, but regardless, many homosexuals know better in their hearts than to believe that they are condemned by God.

Some cultures also believe it is wrong to allow children to use their left hand (the Devil's hand), and will beat them until they only use their right hand. The person was still born left-handed, whether they use it or not. If people are born with a trait as important as sexual orientation, if it is truly who they are, then who are we to condemn them for it? Why not leave that between them and God, assuming he even cares. Why not just be accepting and loving, even if it is not our choice?

I don't believe that there is any legitimate danger to society posed by homosexuals as a class, any more so than heterosexuals as class. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if heteros have a much higher ratio of criminal behavior as a group.

Organized Christianity cloaks the evils of intolerance with the Pharasaical robes of self-righteousness. Isn't it amazing what humans will do to one another as long as someone says that it is "God's will"? It makes me sick!

AhHah

19

The Shunning Song-On the Turning Away

by Seven in

on the turning away.

the turning away.

no more turning away.

AhHah

Path,

Thanks for responding. I can definitely relate to where you are and how it feels to arrive there.

I am also much more settled and at peace than I have ever been in my adult life. Some health problems have also subsided, and I know that it is no coincidence. That includes digestion related disorders and anxiety. I am relating better to others and I feel less need to control everything in my life. I am learning how to "be" and enjoy the moment and the day. I am learning how to be peacefully in the moment even though I could think of a thousand other "important" things that I could be doing. All of these are related to letting go of my indoctrinations and learning to how to live and be a whole person for the first time in my life. I guess these things just take time, especially after a lifetime of programmed control.

You have given me a gift today which I appreciate very much. That gift is your validation of where I am, given our common background. I thank you from my heart. I intend to visit more often.

AhHah

18

I see little good left in WTS

by Amazing in

jw
friends

you said, "so would it be wrong to accept the fact that the wts, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share.".

i think most of us accept that the wts has done some good, but as the years pass, i find that the good i thought they did is getting less and less, and more importantly, the harm caused is getting greater than i could possibly imagine.. you continued, "can we reject what they have pressed to the world: god has a name, his kingdom is to solve mans problems, the earth is to become a paradise as god purposed, man will live endlessly on earth as intended, those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell, and this good news is to be preached in all the earth.".

at this point in my life, after 25 years of being a jw and now an ex-jw, i find their message, its very root concepts, pure fantasy that may not necessarily god's will.

AhHah

Amazing and Path,

Well stated! I had no conscious awareness of the realities of the JW teachings until shortly before I left. I was raised in it, taught not to question, and that probably has a lot to do with how long it took me (I am in my mid-forties). But still, I wonder why it took so long.

Most of my family members are still very active. I can see how some are suffering under it, but they do not. So, I can only conclude that they feel more inclined to cope with the religion than with the alternatives. I have to accept and respect their individual decisions. I only wish for them that their decision could be based on the knowledge such as found in this excellent post. But, when they need to know, I imagine that they will find it, as I did.

To be honest, the alternatives to a rigid belief system are not very comforting or reassuring in themselves, in spite of the sense of relief to be found when their chains are cast off. It can be difficult to admit to oneself for the first time that there are important questions about our existence whose answers cannot be proven.

I can definitely understand the attraction to easy answers, even if it is a false sense of security. I know it felt very real to me when I believed. And, honestly, for a long time I was relatively happy to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I wasn't aware of problems that it was causing in my personality and my life, but I was aware of the benefits it brought, and I focused on those positive aspects. It was an ignorance to be sure, and it was a denial to be sure. But, just the same, I guess the reality must be that it suited me for as long as I chose to stay in it, although I use that word "chose" with some ambivalence, since I was taught that it was disloyal to God to doubt those men. It was still a cult, and therefore an abuse of trust and power. But the attraction of believing is very strong. That is why cults (and religions) will always exist and always exert power over others.

I now find my comfort in the day to day joys of living and giving. I have a trust that there is much good in people and much that is good in the world. I truly believe that if the press spent equal time trying to cover all of the good and unselfish giving that is going on every day, there would literally never be any time left to report the selfishness and the criminal. To be sure, world crises are increasing and our existence as we know it is threatened. But that has been a part of human existence as long as we have recorded human history.

We all seem to be connected, physically and spiritually to the universe and to each other, whether we are aware of it or not. Some seem to be much more in tune to this than others are. I suspect that we can all be more connected to the universe if we choose to be. There is a form of comfort that comes with this recognition. There is always, I believe, a certain degree of uncertainty, regardless of faith or beliefs.

I believe that beliefs are helpful only to the degree that they illuminate universal truths, such as love, and harmful to the degree that they cause denial of these in our lives. I believe that Christ was probably very much in tune with them, in spite of the Judaistic and Pharisaical spin that his followers placed on his message, which, in my opinion, invalidates much of what he taught. In short, I believe that any belief system that would condemn those who disbelieve misses the true value of spirituality and therefore invalidates it. I believe that the part of us which is connected to the universe knows this deep down.

So why do we have such a difficult time accepting life (and death) and the universe for what it is? Is it a simple fear of the unknown? Is the unknown truly knowable in this life? I know that the answers must transcend the limitations of organized Christianity and all other organized belief systems, even if those do contain some glimpses of universal truths. If I never find the answers to these questions, I will still attempt to live each day with a sense of the grand awe of this amazing universe that surrounds us, happy to be a part of it, even if just for today.

AhHah

Edited by - AhHah on 24 March 2001 19:27:19

24

Big Boys Don't Cry........

by ISP in

jw
friends

big boys don't cry!

well that's what we are told anyway!

and i guess this convention is widespread in many cultures.

AhHah

I was surprised when I found this topic and I was surprised to read the account of General "Stormin'" Norman. Most men don't seem willing to talk about it. I enjoyed reading the different impressions about it.

Apparently, men can be very different in their emotional make-up and their need or inclination to cry. I have always been under the impression that I am given to tears more than the average man. Of course, I really can't be sure since men don't usually talk about it (a cultural stigma I guess.) I consciously try not to cry in public or around people that I don't know well, but sometimes I do anyway if I just can't hold the tears back. I know that I allow myself to feel things very deeply. I am often moved by the experiences of others, whether it be happy or sad, and I may cry or get teary in response to either. Movies often move me.

I get the feeling that many men learn to suppress their feelings or emotional responses, so as not to be ridiculed or considered weak. I do not consider myself weak in any sense, even though I am given to tears. I have never lacked courage or conviction and I have never been afraid to stand up for myself or my loved ones, physically if necessary. I am average in height but I have always been very physically strong and muscular and very athletic. I do not get intimidated by other men and I will stand my ground wherever necessary. My emotions don't interfere with my ability to take appropriate action where necessary or cause me to act inappropriately. So, in short, I don't give any credence to the stereotype that men who cry are weak. Of course, we all have moments of comparative weakness or strength, male or female, that is unrelated to crying or not.

I haven't posted here for several months until responding to Seven yesterday. I spent some time last night reading many of the current posts. This is "large room" now, but a very interesting one! I was surprised to read so many posts about so many topics that reminded me very much of my own posts. There was much validation here for me.

AhHah

Edited by - AhHah on 24 March 2001 17:46:58

19

The Shunning Song-On the Turning Away

by Seven in

on the turning away.

the turning away.

no more turning away.

AhHah

Dear Seven,

I wish that I could express how much your heartfelt words mean to me. I am overwhelmed. I really didn't know that you felt that way. I am glad that you are able to see what is in my heart and how much I care.

I remember crying as I read your account and Waiting's, and being so touched that you both would entrust our small group with such a painful and private disclosure. I felt so helpless -- that anything I wrote would seem somehow trite and inadequate for what you both must have been through. Yet, to say nothing would have been unconscionable. I felt so proud of you both for summoning the courage and allowing us the opportunity to show how much we care about you, in spite of all the limitations of this medium. If I could, I would give you a very big hug right now!

I sense that there has been much healing since we last conversed. You seem very positive and you sound as though the hardest part is behind you. I can't tell you how happy that makes me. You have so much to offer, and I feel fortunate to know you, even through this limited forum. You have definitely inspired me.

I know that this forum has provided me with a very necessary part of my recovery from the trauma of my losses upon leaving the JWs. (BTW, I appreciated your recent post about post-traumatic recovery from cult participation.) I believe that I was still working through more anger than I even realized. I feel fortunate to have found such a special group as this, who, for the most part, let me rant and explore my feelings and sort through new knowledge and ideas.

However, I felt as though I had worn out my welcome and that it was best that I just go away. As I mentioned, I believe that some of the criticism that I received was valid. It was very painful and I needed time to accept it and learn from it. I believe that I have. I no longer feel as much need for others to agree with me. Another recent post here that I just found last night helped me to realize that this is another typical trait that can be related to the JW mindset.

Thank you, Seven and Waiting and Path for kindly understanding what I was going through and seeing my heart. To know that some of what I posted here made a positive difference in your lives means so very much to me.

Frenchy, if you are reading this, be assured of my love. You are a good man with a good heart and you have given so much that is positive to those who visit here, including myself. I hope that you can forgive me where I offended you and see my heart as well.

Sincerely,
AhHah

Edited by - AhHah on 25 March 2001 1:22:39

19

The Shunning Song-On the Turning Away

by Seven in

on the turning away.

the turning away.

no more turning away.

AhHah

Dear Waiting (er, I mean Your Excellency!) and dear Path,

So very nice to read a reply from both of you!

Waiting, I imagine that a group as large as this one is now must keep you pretty busy. I hope that all of these new whipper-snappers are minding their manners and showing proper respect to Your Highness. It is hard for me to imagine this forum without you -- you seem to have a real gift for always knowing what to say (and what not to). Puppylove and I thank you for the warm welcome, as always.

Path, your kind words also meant a lot to me. I always felt a kinship with you. You have a sensibility about things which always made me feel that I could relate to you. I know that my outspokenness about some things didn't go ever very well with you at times, but you were never unkind. You once admonished me to stop posting for a while on a certain topic and just listen and learn. That was good advice then and I am still trying to follow it now. I don't visit often, but I haven't managed to catch many of your posts. I would enjoy hearing where you are, so to speak. Sounds like perhaps you have started to move on a bit as well? Again, thanks for your kind words. You, too, Waiting!

AhHah

19

The Shunning Song-On the Turning Away

by Seven in

on the turning away.

the turning away.

no more turning away.

AhHah

Dear Seven,

Thank you so much for your inquiry! I was genuinely touched by your kind remembrance. I reviewed this entire post. Such beautiful and heartfelt expressions! This, to me, was a genuine reaching out, a true fellowship. It made me a little melancholy to recall how comforted I used to feel by being able to share so much with you and, what at the time, was just a handful of others. Fortunately, I had email notification for responses on this post, as I only visit occasionally. I hardly recognize this place now!

Puppylove and I are doing just fine. We are so grateful to be on this journey together. We are still in the process of "charting our new course" together. As another old-timer (was it Xandit?) posted here in what seems like a long time ago, we are enjoying living and we are less focused on being ex-JWs.

Lately, I have been reaching out (writing) to one of my sisters who left the JW's a long time ago. The effort has been rewarded. I am beginning to truly know my sister for the first time. Another silver lining on the black cloud!

Let me take this opportunity to thank you and so many others for all of your kind words and encouragement on this forum. You all helped me along in my emotional healing process. You patiently waded through my wordy emails as I attempted to find myself again (or should I say for the first time)? Like so many here, the loss of friends and family was the high price I paid for following my conscience. The real feeling of fellowship that I found here was priceless.

In the process of baring my soul here and sharing knowledge that was important to my spiritual liberation, the reactions of some also helped me to learn some important lessons. As is the case with most criticism, there was a measure of truth in some of the criticism that I received here. I have tried to learn from it and adjust my personality. I try to moderate the way that I react to others with a different opinion and the way I feel about their need to believe as they do and their freedom to believe and express themselves as they wish. Even when not treated with the same courtesy, there is great benefit to oneself in treating others this way. So, for these lessons I am also grateful.

I realize that many here continue to reach out to others and I am glad to see it. So much going on "in one room" though, it seems to take a while to find posts that one relates to.

Well, this turned out to be another of my long-winded posts didn't it? Seven, let me say again how much it meant to hear from you. Let me also thank Waiting for her encouragement to keep posting here. You "old-timers" (or should I say Jedi's) are a special group and I love you.

Sincerely,
AhHah ( [email protected])

33

The divinity of Jesus as the Christ

by Theophilus in

i have been curious why the jw's and other cults claim that the bible does not support the notion of the christ as divine (god).

can anyone offer an explanation?

my reading of the texts brings me to that conclusion.

AhHah

Frenchy,

I am not surprised by your response at this point. Your attitude toward me was already more than obvious and your last post confirms it. I don't find it amusing at all. Again, I am very disappointed.

I welcome fair argument and fair criticism. Yours were neither.
I feel that something was lost here, something that made this forum feel different to me than others I have seen.

Edited by - AhHah on 23 November 2000 22:47:46

33

The divinity of Jesus as the Christ

by Theophilus in

i have been curious why the jw's and other cults claim that the bible does not support the notion of the christ as divine (god).

can anyone offer an explanation?

my reading of the texts brings me to that conclusion.

AhHah

Hey Tom,

It feels to me like he never left!

11

Turkey Dinner

by Carmel in

all of you are invited to the real macoy thanksgiving dinner at my place!

well all but mrs. wit, or was that twit?

she has her jiggers and snakes and southern comfort to keep her company.. in case you couldn't tell, i wish i were in the good ol us this week for the bird!

AhHah

Path,

That describes my childhood also. Sad but true.