TL;DR- Yes, JWs are definitively Creationists in that we believe the universe and life therein was created by a creator per the bible. However yes, we believe with Evolution to the extent that it is scientifically observable and does not conflict with the bible account. As do many other denominations, including most recently Catholics, in case anyone hasn't heard about the pope's new decision to make evolution acceptable to catholicism. Anywho, JW's are not the only Christians who believe that there weren't Chihuahuas on the Ark.
To clarify: Evolution is readily observable to the extent that, within a species, traits can be selectively targeted. Most breeds of Dog we have today are results of observable selection. This process explains the famous finches Darwin saw with beaks of different shapes in different islands. All finches... but natural selection definitively changed how the population looked in different areas. For a more personal example... creationists and evolutionists believe in a common human ancestor... yet we have noticably different races. Observable, undeniable evolution.
However, most in the scientific community extend what we can observe to the concept that not only do all finches have a common finch ancestor... but farther back they share a common ancestor with all birds. Farther back, they share a common ancestor with all creatures that escaped the water. Far enough back, all life shares a common ancestor... this includes people and bacteria and apple trees and gold fish. All share a common ancestor. Science can not explain how the original common ancestor came into being, or describe anything about it, but that's OK, since Abiogenesis is a "different theory."
Birds having a common bird ancestor is scientifically observable, and JWs believe it. Birds sharing a common ancestor with fish is neither readily observable nor biblically supported, so we don't buy into it. We definitively believe in Creation... and can observe in the diversity that's come since creation. Perhaps God has guided some of it. Perhaps some of it is simply the result of nature balancing itself naturally.
It's not confusing or double speak or going back on anything... it's finding a common ground.
As for an "Old Earth Creationism" vs. "YEC." ... That's a little more maliable. Most JWs I know lean heavily toward the idea of the earth being more than 6,000 literal years old. We agree with the bible's chronology setting human history at 6,000 years... however, the best talk I've heard on the subject simply pointed out that we know the order in which the creative events were recorded. First one thing happened, then another thing. If the universe was being created, why would God measure time based on the rotation of one specific rock? Each "Creative day" COULD have been one literal 24 hour period... or it could have been a period for which there was no accurate name a few thousand years ago. Perhaps each step took 10 billion years? Perhaps each step was instantaneous? Perhaps "in the beginning" God spent billions of years tinkering with the universe. The earth COULD have been around for billions of years, and then dinosaurs for millions of years before people were crafted 6,000 years ago. Or perhaps not. The bible isn't very specific on that time line, so we can only estimate. The universe sure LOOKS older than 6,000 years (particularly because we can see light from objects more than 6,000 light years away)... but, it's not a "central doctrine"... and if a JW believes each creative day was one revolution of our planet... the bible doesn't clearly disagree with that concept, so it's possible.
Posts by mohrb
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28ARE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES CREATIONISTS OR EVOLUTIONISTS?
by Viva la Vida inthe answer to this question is not that easy or obvious as you might think.
if your answer is "creationists" you are wrong, they are evolutionists a rare breed of evolutionists, but evolutionists at last .. at this stage of my argumentation you might think i have lost my mind for stating jehovahs witnesses are evolutionists, but this might be because you are thinking as the wt has taught you to think.
the wt has presented a distorted view of the theory of evolution.
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mohrb
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preface question:
by mohrb inorder of operations is important, so, i'll ask a question before i make assumptions and start "fixing things.".
obviously, the site heavily encourages the viewpoint of former j-dubs and others who have disagreements with the political posturing of the wbts.
i get that, and see your points.
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mohrb
Onthewayout: I've definitely questioned each of those things, myself. IMO, the WBTS's understanding of the 144k is our most harmful teaching. It's the source of so much arrogance that is the slippery slope to what obviously crushed your faith. That's a tangent I wouldn't mind exploring in another thread.
Your question: "Where do we speak up?" is a valid one. And valuable. It's something that SHOULD be answered. This is 2014. We has the internets. Instead of crying about a poorly written article, we should hold the writers accountable when an article is poorly written. There are quite a few for which I'd like clarification. Luckily, these are the minority. A rational interpretation of most articles are pretty healthy and harmless. And, again, the point isn't the article. That's not your food. That's the cutlery. A horrible homework assignment doesn't make math itself wrong.
Kate: --face hugs-- I'm sorry you were mistreated. Whether or not people are worthy of your faith, please don't let their sins keep you from Jehovah. Some of his fanclub can be idiots sometimes. They'll have to explain themselves eventually.Star Trek "Rather we invite you to engage the debate, which in our experience is not something a regular JW will be willing to do": It's 2014. More of us should be. And that is exactly the healthy reason I enjoy going to forums like this. People like you who honestly WANT open conversation. What makes rational conversation difficult is people who went from one extreme of "this is absolute truth" to the other extreme of "This is an evil mind controlling cult lie baby-eating.... thing" ... That extremism is harmful in either direction.
Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited,provoking and envying each other.
Some people DO fake-love-bomb. Others actually friggin' love. Don't let the pickles ruin the rest of the delicious sammich. (This illustration makes sense if, like me, you enjoy delicious sammiches... but do not like pickles. When I hit a pickle, I don't throw the sammich away. I get the pickle out of my way so I can enjoy the sammich. Pickles are gross.)
Edit: WHAT IS THIS 10 POST LIMIT!? I don't want to wall-o'-text, but this discussion is fun... so... sorry. I want to address every single point everyone makes, but apparently the site hates people who don't stop talking. And I don't see a PM function.
Star Trek: "Most of us were also thaught that the world outside the KH was evil. " Another thing that sets people up with irrationally high expectations and crushes people's faiths. That gave me some trouble when I was a child too. Took a while to figure out that logic and faith aren't enemies.Last point I'll make to keep it short: There's a difference between "Independent/rebellious" thinking and "Critical thinking." It's a wife thinking "How can I help my husband" vs. "how can I help myself at the expense of my husband." Trying to splinter off to teach "this congregation teaches this" and "that congregation teaches that" is disruptive. But, all congregations working together, honestly testing our understandings and weeding out flaws is exactly how we grow. We did it well until the 50's.
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preface question:
by mohrb inorder of operations is important, so, i'll ask a question before i make assumptions and start "fixing things.".
obviously, the site heavily encourages the viewpoint of former j-dubs and others who have disagreements with the political posturing of the wbts.
i get that, and see your points.
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mohrb
Grrr, my normal formatting isn't going to work. I apologize as this may look sloppy:
First, forgive me while I try to figure out all of this forum's format options.
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But, our fundamental role is to make converts.
There's the first misunderstanding. I'm sure you remember the illustration of the faithful slave "providing spiritual food at the proper time." Really think about that illustration. What's the food? What is it that provides nourishment to the heart? Think about that illustration literally. I suggest that food is God's teaching through prayerful understanding of the bible. All the fancy peripheral books "What does the bible teach" and magazines and whatnot are the plates and silverware... they're not the food... they're a tool to eat the food. The greatest common factor I see among Ex-JWs is a disgust about how rarely they were reading "the bible" and how often they replaced it with a book about the bible as a substitute. Forks and knives are VERY useful for eating your food, but your stomach will be empty if you fill your plate with silverware. ... this doesn't mean silverware is useless. Some people just use it wrong.
Think of God as the Chef in his own house. He made all the food. The assignment the WBTS have is to manage the rest of us servents as we plate the food God's prepared (people who write study articles) and present the food to the guests at God's table (those to whom we're preaching).
If our goal is to rush the meal to get our guests to come work in the kitchen... how are those guests to enjoy the meal God prepared? Likewise if we push the meat aside and obsess over how friggin' awesome the cutlery is! That defeats the purpose.
The system works. We've been sloppy in it's execution (particularly since the 50's). Doesn't mean the food's bad. We've been assuming our primary function is to focus on the cutlary, so we have starved waiters. Then the food stops looking so good and people quit.Make sense?
How can an honest person "witness" to folk with flawed and unscriptural doctrines - how could I possibly teach the latest generation teaching when I'm personally shaking my head and thinking...how could I have taught previous interpretations as if it were truth, absolute truth - praying with my students "that these marvellous truths sound down into their heart?"
There's your problem. Arrogance. We work for the best interpretation of scripture we CAN. To assume an understanding is "Absolute truth" is to point a spiritual gun at your spiritual face. Learning something better seems to be a "problem" instead of something to be celebrated. Tell me, assume again for a moment that God's plan is for you to live forever in his Kingdom. You can chill out with the big dude for an infinite amount of time and can ask him any question. If you had a 10 year long conversation directly with God... could you learn everything there was to know and completely run out of questions? In 10 years you couldn't even get a list of all the stars in a galexy, let alone know everything about each planet. What about a 1,000 year conversation? Could you understand everything that he's planned throughout history? Every artistic touch he's put in your DNA? How can we ever run out of questions? We'll never have a perfect understanding of the infinite knowledge there is in the universe... because that's how "infinite" works. I assume that after this system, after the 1,000 year reign, and a few million years into the future we'll STILL be improving our understanding of all the reasons God has for stuff. So, how arrogant can we be to assume that our interpretation of a TINY book is "absolute truth?" I agree that the book is inspired by God... but we need a lot more than a couple thousand years to fully comprehend all of the contexts. Be reasonable. Accept that we're still learning, and we always should be. This is a good thing. If you expect a group with an "absolute truth" ... you're looking for a group that's stopped asking questions. That's a bad thing.
How could I expect an honest hearted person to accept our stand on blood? Blood poured out for the intake of fractions is a conscience decision, but blood poured out for a transfusion is wicked and detestable to Jehovah? Is blood sacred or not? This isn't just about "us" - it's about proactively teaching others and drawing them into the organisation.
That, perhaps, is a tangent for another thread. For now, I'll leave it at this: It's a matter of conscience. The bible doesn't "Forbid" the use of blood. It says it should be "abstained from." Pray about it and trust God to help you find understanding. Blood isn't magical evil stuff... but it's dangerous to mess around with. Look at Noblood.org. This is NOT a JW site... doesn't have any religious connotation at all. Even with all of the advancements that have been made in how to most safely transfuse blood, there are a LOT of doctors who medically object to blood transfusions. There are dozens of hospitals across the US that are completely transfusion free. And there are a lot of advantages to that. There are very rational and irrational extremes on both ends, regarding this topic. In the end... it's not a "foundational Doctrine." It's not required for JWyness.
Would you witness and conduct bible studies, teaching interpretations which you have personally found difficult to swallow? What does that do to us? How damaging is that to our conscience? But what options do witnesses have? Is it fair to ask folk to join God's organisation knowing that once they are baptised, they will be expected to believe whatever new 'truths' are handed out.
I have a feeling there's a bit more context to this suggestion. Mind clarifying? For example, I'm skeptical about the theory that Michael and Jesus are the same being. Here's how I address that topic: Some witnesses SUGGEST that these two may be the same individual based upon the following correlations between the two: (And there are rational things linking them). However, the bible doesn't specifically say one way or the other... so it's something we'll find out when we find out. It's an interesting theory to consider. I would never say they DEFINITELY are the same person. I would never say the DEFINITELY aren't... because the evidence is sloshy... it's no stronger than the scriptures trinitarians use for their theory. Dissent is fine... just be reasonable and respectful. Just because you don't fully buy into something as an absolute truth... doesn't mean there's a malicious conspiracy or "intentional untruth." I do agree, however, that some people are arrogant in their understanding and preach topics such as this as unquestionable. I've seen it, and they'll have to answer to God for that, because I've seen it make people stumble. We think we're being "authoritative" ... but that arrogant attitude, assuming we have all the answers of unquestionable truth... is exactly what set up most of the people who are here today.
I have loved the teaching of paradise like so many here - but over the past 20 odd years, my conscience has taken a battering. I prayed for the understanding of what turned out to be error..... so many times. That hurts - and it hurts that I have delivered intellectually dishonest publications to folk, containing manipulative language at times. Not my words, but written by men who don't seem to think it's a problem.....it's heartbreaking.
I believe that you're heartbroken. I understand, and I've seen it many times. Some time I'll tell you about that circuit overseer talk I heard that literally almost had me stand up in the middle of the meeting to object. People make horrible mistakes. Even those we expect to be held to a higher standard. But we're all people. Some of us have lied and cheated and stole and killed and raped. Considering how most of the apostles have faltered and sinned, how can we expect perfection from speakers and article writers? They are expected to honestly try. But, we have to be rational and take, even what they say, critically. Don't put them on a pedistal. They're men.
So, what does the talk of an imperfect (even sinful) man have to do with the teaching of a paradise earth? Did his talk change what was written thousands of years ago? If a crackhead the street tells you 2+2=4... does this become untrue because of who said it? Ad Hominem. Horrible people can be right. Amazing people can be wrong. Wise men can sin. Not everyone in authority uses it properly. Why do these things change what you think of the bible? -
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Quotes on how JWs view and treat people who disassociate themselves
by cognac ini can't seem to find any quotes on this.
does anybody have any?.
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mohrb
What's the question? If you just stop going to meetings... there's not really a protocall because there's nothing wrong with that. A good elder should check up on you to see if there's a reason you stopped they might be able to help with. But there's a chasm between "someone who stops going" and "an unrepentant sinner."
I have family who are disfellowshipped. I have family who've decided never to go again. Myself, I've been too busy with life to go for pretty good chunks of time. I've seen just about every angle.
Only negative repercussion I've seen when you stop going is that when you show up again a year later, the guy at the door may think you're a noob and offer to find a seat for you. -
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Help
by Horseygirl12 inim so frustrated i could kill myself right now!!
im 15 and a couple weeks ago i confessed to my parents that i didn't want to be a jehovahs witness anymore and also that i was bisexual.
i had just gotten back from an eating disorder clinic and my parents decided to put me back in school (i was homeschooling before).
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mohrb
If you don't want to be a JW... figure out why. Don't do it because you may be bisexual or because of something having to do with your parents.
Try to untangle one issue from another so you don't burn bridges that could otherwise be helpful.
And, not to be "that guy" ... but there are a lot of good verses to pray over. Psalms 43:5, 55:22, 1 Peter 5:6-7. Some challenges are allowed to give us opportunities to lean on Him. Can't tell you how many times I've struggled with every fiber of my being... and when I finally give up, everything just falls into place. God's stronger than either of us. We need to stop trying to do it all ourselves. -
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Help
by Horseygirl12 inim so frustrated i could kill myself right now!!
im 15 and a couple weeks ago i confessed to my parents that i didn't want to be a jehovahs witness anymore and also that i was bisexual.
i had just gotten back from an eating disorder clinic and my parents decided to put me back in school (i was homeschooling before).
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mohrb
If you don't mind my 2 cents, Horseygirl:
1: You're not a freak. Your parents aren't perfect. The value of your life has nothing to do with their approval. Some very good people I know became strong because of very challenging homes.
2: The above suggestions are absolutely correct, you DO need someone to talk to and all that... but until then... just remember to breathe. Depression is pretty common, and it can be suffocating if you try to ignore it. Find some music you can identify with, that lets you feel all the things you're angry about. It's like massaging a sore muscle... it hurts a bit while you're rubbing, but releases the pressure in the long run. Some good angry music really can calm you down.
3: The most disturbing sentence I saw was this: " I would just obey them and be a JW I would be happy." Regardless of your relationship with God, you don't have that relationship "to obey your parents." Your parents SHOULD encourage your faith, your faith should never be something "to make them happy." What's the greatest commandment? Is the "greatest commandment" not to think girls are pretty? No, it's to love God, and love your neighbor. All humans. Even if they're gay. Or republican. Or a scientologist. You don't have to approve of their scientology. But you have to love them. If your parents can't get that, you've got 3 years to learn from their mistakes until you're free.
Just don't pull the "kill yourself" card. Doesn't solve anything, doesn't prove anything, it's expensive and messy. And it's a punk move. Instead of that, learn from your pain while you have it so you can be the difference for someone else when they're feeling like you are now. -
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preface question:
by mohrb inorder of operations is important, so, i'll ask a question before i make assumptions and start "fixing things.".
obviously, the site heavily encourages the viewpoint of former j-dubs and others who have disagreements with the political posturing of the wbts.
i get that, and see your points.
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mohrb
1: Smiddy and Vid, It's all about HOW you have those conversations. I've listened to a Circuit Overseer talk and outright told an elder that it offended me to the point of disgust... that a major point to his talk was contrary to everything our congregation stands for, and he should be ashamed of himself (based on Mark 9:42 and Matthew 18:6). Not disfellowshipped. You can disapprove of what an individual does without suggesting that the entire congregation is evil conspirators for allowing such a thing as an old dude's talk being arrogant, foolish, and poorly worded.
2: Syntax, That's a very healthy attitude. And exactly why I'd like to attempt to buffer some of the conspiracy a bit, because I wish the internets were a safer place for JWs to see rational dissenting viewpoints. And, there ARE obvious problems, no doubt. But, for example, legally registering as a 501.c.3 company doesn't necessarily mean the society is "becoming part of the government it condemns! ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT! Takin' our guns!" ... it's just a bloody registration. There really are rational explanations for quite a lot of things.3: Sparrow and Lisa, The rational step to seeing a problem... is -calmly and respectfully- fixing the problem. Find a way to improve the community... don't condemn the whole thing because a certain elder overstepped his biblical authority. 1 Corinthians 1:11-17. A good witness doesn't serve Paul or Apollos or Cephas or Elder Smith. But, God and his Son. It's sad seeing people go against the whole congregation... even the whole bible... even God himself because of the inpropriety of a certain elder (Or group). Some of those elders really should read Mark 9:42 and Matthew 18:6. However, it would be blatantly foolish for us to commit that same sin directly because of how much we were hurt when that sin was committed against us.
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Next time a JW tells you that you shouldn't let your children go to college ...
by EdenOne intell them this:.
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eden.
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mohrb
Yes, That article was inappropriate and arrogant. It's also about a half-century old.
<-JW. Went to college. Have a career.
They still warn that SOME colleges can do more harm than good... which is true. If you go to a frat college and party your way through a minor in liberal arts... you'll get nothing but debt into your 40's and some herpes. Those are forever. -
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preface question:
by mohrb inorder of operations is important, so, i'll ask a question before i make assumptions and start "fixing things.".
obviously, the site heavily encourages the viewpoint of former j-dubs and others who have disagreements with the political posturing of the wbts.
i get that, and see your points.
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mohrb
No worries. Just wanted to confirm before saying something that could be considered accusatory.
But, what is this "can not be fixed" rubbish? You realize the foundation of the religion is based upon questioning man-made teachings. The system isn't broken, the people have just been too lazy and sheepish to do their duty and speak up in a constructive, upbuilding way. Easier to throw a useless fit on the internet than do something productive and help the congregation grow.
Example, the society warns about the dangers of the internets... and this site evolves out of protest, proving that exact point that seemed so unreasonable.
It's like objecting to that little warning about kids drowning in buckets by drowning a kid in a bucket. By overreacting to their overreactions, you've completely justified their warning.
So, if you have a concern... why not skip the giant conspiracy theories and stick with taking rational steps about a reasonable complaint.
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Did God really test Adam and Eve, and Abraham?
by Kalos ingod does not test anyone.
(james 1:14) hence any account claiming god as testing man (perfect or imperfect) will betray the signs of mans (not gods) thought!.
1) god asking adam not to eat of a particular fruit-bearing tree defies all logic as any fruit-bearing tree is a symbol of goodnessproducing nutritious food (not for themselves) for others; thus doing good for the sake of goodness, which is the very core-attribute of god himself (mathew 5:44-47; mark 10:18) hence eating [the principle] of a fruit-bearing tree would only make man like godsomething jesus himself commanded everyone to do!!!.
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mohrb
You're right, that translation of that verse is problematic. That's why we have interlinear translations and greek to english dictionaries:
The word above translated as "test:"
1-to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgment, Matthew 16:1; Matthew 19:3; Matthew 22:18, 35; Mark 8:11;Mark 10:2; Mark 12:15; Luke 11:16; Luke 20:23(where G T WH Tr text omit; Tr marginal reading brackets the words τί με πειράζετε ); John 8:6.
2-. to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin; hence, according to the context equivalent to to solicit to sin, to tempt : James 1:13;Galatians 6:1; Revelation 2:10; of the temptations of the devil, Matthew 4:1, 3; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2; 1 Corinthians 7:5; 1 Thessalonians 3:5; hence, ὁ πειράζων , a substantive, Vulg. tentator , etc., the tempter : Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5.
3-. After the O. T. usage α . of God; to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith : 1 Corinthians 10:13;Hebrews 2:18; Hebrews 4:15 (see πειράω ); (where see WH 's Appendix); Revelation 3:10 (Genesis 22:1;Exodus 20:20; Deuteronomy 8:2; Wis. 3:5 Wis. 11:10(); Judith 8:25f). β . Men are said πειράζειν τόν Θεόν — by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted; by impious or wicked conduct to test God's justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were, to give proof of his perfections: Acts 15:10; Hebrews 3:9 R G (Exodus 17:2, 7; Numbers 14:22; Psalm 77:41 (), ; (), etc.; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdb. on Sap., p. 49); namely, τόν Χριστόν ( L T Tr text WH τόν κύριον ), 1 Corinthians 10:9 (but L marginal reading T WH marginal reading ἐξεπείρασαν ); τό κυρίου ,Acts 5:9; absolutely πειράζειν ἐν δοιμασια (see δοκιμασία ), Hebrews 3:9 L T Tr WH . (On πειράζω (as compared with δοκιμάζω ), see Trench , § lxxiv.; cf. Cremer , under the word. Compare: ἐξπειράζω .)
... God surely tests us, but he does not do so with temptation of sin. He tests our faith and endurance and obedience. He does not tempt us into sin.
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