i,m going to cut to the chase here .i am not long viewing this website and am fascinated at much of what i have read.currently i attend meetings, but sit there and think of what i now know about the society and its past.i just feel so confused at the moment with religion.. its a bit like who shot jfk ,did man really land on the moon etc .. except it involves all of us( just wish i knew the truth).
the only thing that is keeping me there right now is that all my family are in the "truth" ,,and i cant just stay at home and be shunned which i have recently experienced ( was inactive for a while) .. if i knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that i have found the true faith and discern that it is definately the true faith, i would then make a stand and nothing would stop me .
already i am reading the scriptures without the aid of wt publications and what i am reading is amazing .i am starting to feel that i am now getting closer to god by simply doing this coupled with prayer.. there must be one true faith as there was in the first century.
OHHH come on guys . The Devil is literal .
Heathen, we're not saying he is not a real person, we're debating just 'how singularly literal' he is in Rev 20:10. He is listed as being thrown in the Lake of Fire with the Wild Beast and the False Prophet which are both symbolic. Basicaly LT asked 'aren't the Demons getting torched too along with the Devil?' So the 'Devil' in Rev 20:10 would be signifing both Satan and his followers.
the questions from readers has affirmed that the 144,000 is a literal number.
it states that some numbers in revelation are symbolic and others are literal.
it argues that since the great crowd which is unnumbered is mentioned right after the 144,000, then logically the 144,000 would have to be literal.
After having a discussion with LittleToe on another Thread concerning Rev 20:10 I have to concede that perhaps the 144,000 of Rev.14:1 is a symbolic representation of the Little Flock (Luke 12:32) and not literal.
What is the true Christian Faith / Religion
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/79725/1296802/post.ashx#1296802
i,m going to cut to the chase here .i am not long viewing this website and am fascinated at much of what i have read.currently i attend meetings, but sit there and think of what i now know about the society and its past.i just feel so confused at the moment with religion.. its a bit like who shot jfk ,did man really land on the moon etc .. except it involves all of us( just wish i knew the truth).
the only thing that is keeping me there right now is that all my family are in the "truth" ,,and i cant just stay at home and be shunned which i have recently experienced ( was inactive for a while) .. if i knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that i have found the true faith and discern that it is definately the true faith, i would then make a stand and nothing would stop me .
already i am reading the scriptures without the aid of wt publications and what i am reading is amazing .i am starting to feel that i am now getting closer to god by simply doing this coupled with prayer.. there must be one true faith as there was in the first century.
LT
Flash:
The Devil is literal, the Wild Beast and the False Prophet are symbolic as is the Lake of Fire. Good point though, v10 contains both literal and symbolic information.
So what about all the other wee minions of Satan? Don't they get the butane treatment?
Surely "Devil" is representative of a wider group, too?
Another good question. The Demons outcome is the same as the Devils. It does call into question the literalness of the word "Devil" in this scripture.
I'm enjoying our exchanges, btw
Me Too!
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Heathen
Flash --- I am positive I was not a dub . I did read alot of the publications and study from time to time but never went thru the ritual of baptism and becoming a minister . I was baptized by the catholic church as an infant tho , didn't have much to say about that at the time . Still don't consider myself catholic and will never participate in the religion as I think it's the whore of babylon...
...The WTBTS did make some sense on some issues but still is a horrid religion to be a member of .They seem to only care about raising money from selling publications and they go too far when they say the WTBTS is the mediator of the new covenant for the great crowd ( it's what I've seen discussed on the board).There is only one mediator and that is jesus christ .
Smart move in both areas! I was a Catholic too, I left for the Witnesses and I still am a Witness general speaking concerning their 'primary teachings.' Their cult mentality I have NO use for.
i,m going to cut to the chase here .i am not long viewing this website and am fascinated at much of what i have read.currently i attend meetings, but sit there and think of what i now know about the society and its past.i just feel so confused at the moment with religion.. its a bit like who shot jfk ,did man really land on the moon etc .. except it involves all of us( just wish i knew the truth).
the only thing that is keeping me there right now is that all my family are in the "truth" ,,and i cant just stay at home and be shunned which i have recently experienced ( was inactive for a while) .. if i knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that i have found the true faith and discern that it is definately the true faith, i would then make a stand and nothing would stop me .
already i am reading the scriptures without the aid of wt publications and what i am reading is amazing .i am starting to feel that i am now getting closer to god by simply doing this coupled with prayer.. there must be one true faith as there was in the first century.
Heathen
Flash --- I kinda agree but I think it is the seven headed beast that attacks the harlot and goes off into destruction but the lamb beast is the one that continues to project the image of the first beast ...
Your right. I should have made my self clearer. When I talk about the Wild Beast I am thinking of the seven headed one not the Lamb Beast.
The lamb beast is still active during the time of the end and is destroyed with a swift pitch into the lake of fire . I still believe that armageddon is a spiritual war that involves political powers that attack with laws the freedom of speech of those that represent the holy ones of Israel because they refuse the mark of the beast . Something like that ...........
Yes, are you sure you were never a JW? Sounds right to me! I do believe it will ultimately lead to religions destruction.
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LT
Flash: And the image of the WIld beast, and the prophet and the frogs (Rev.16:13, 14)?The Wild Beast is the UN. The prophet and the frogs? I don't know.
What about the birds of Rev.19:17?
The birds I believe are literal. There will be an aboundance of corpses after Armageddon.
And in view of Rev.20:10, is the Devil actually symbolic of something, too?The Devil is literal, the Wild Beast and the False Prophet are symbolic as is the Lake of Fire. Good point though, v10 contains both literal and symbolic information.
IMHO it has nothing to do with modern day and everything to do with the period in which it was writtenWe definately don't agree here. The last word is yours.
it happens all the time,great thinkers, brilliant minds,come to opposite conclusions.one example is the view on "the ransom".
.alan f.wrote a brillant essay on this and concluded that such a thing is not reasonable.
after having read his essay and many others, i agree.. on the other hand, ray franz believes in the ransom.
Satanus,
The last word is yours. Have a Nice Day!
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Brilliant Minds and Great Thinkers with Opposite Conclusions.
Satanus and Flash?
it happens all the time,great thinkers, brilliant minds,come to opposite conclusions.one example is the view on "the ransom".
.alan f.wrote a brillant essay on this and concluded that such a thing is not reasonable.
after having read his essay and many others, i agree.. on the other hand, ray franz believes in the ransom.
First, my apologies to Blue blades. The title of your Thread caught my eye and the posts are interesting, but I have nothing on the subject to share.
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one
All your points on emotions are good ones. I like this one the best. This is why we have to be sure where we let our heart lead us.Emotions do no follow rules constantly, can not be predicted.
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Satanus
He gives you freedom, but if people actually use it to be independent, to have sex outside of marriage, to not believe in yhwh or the bible or jesus or the ransom, to play w 'demons', then it's death for them. Nice freedom.
Yes there are laws. Law is nessesary or chaos will prevail. Chaos by nature is self destructive. When the cells in our bodies become lawless we call it Cancer. We aren't happy when parts of our body are in a 'lawless' way acting independent. We do what ever it takes to maintain the order within the rest of our body.
He made a ruling against eating of the tree of knowledge. Eating of it resulted in the death sentence from yhwh. Yhwh wanted total dependence on himself, not independent exploration.
Yes and no. Compared to God we are like chidren living under His roof. We are never going to be 'more' than God or out-grow Him. Yet, we are not always going to be babes under or needing constant supervision either. I don't believe God is or will be guilty of 'smother love.'
Ok, there may be a few fun things that he does/did. Can you name a few?
S
The joy that comes from family and friends. Setting goals, working toward and reaching them. The earth and all it's wonders. The seemingly endless universe and the adventures awaiting us out there, to name a few. Although, if you believe as the GB/WTS does, that YHWH is a micro-managing control freak, then life and the future isn't so bright. I don't think He's that at all and I would prefer reasonable law and order over lawlessness and chaos!
it happens all the time,great thinkers, brilliant minds,come to opposite conclusions.one example is the view on "the ransom".
.alan f.wrote a brillant essay on this and concluded that such a thing is not reasonable.
after having read his essay and many others, i agree.. on the other hand, ray franz believes in the ransom.
Even gods disagree, despite being super smart and super powerful. The yhwh god wants absolute obediance, perfect order, and tolerates no opposition whatsoever.
Now I don't see this as a bad thing, I also don't see this as the whole story. As a matter of fact the qualities your attributing to Satan I think is really how YHWH is! IMO, Yahweh's big public relations problem is how the WTS/Cult Organization promotes Him! When actualy He's this way...
Satan, god of the competing party,"Yahweh" wants freedom for individuals and unlimited knowledge for individuals. Most of all, he wants to have fun!!!!!
This is exactly how I see Him. The Cult WTS has misrepresented HIM so badly by their WRONG CONDUCT and SPEACH its no wonder people think He's nothing but a Dominating Lord!!
i,m going to cut to the chase here .i am not long viewing this website and am fascinated at much of what i have read.currently i attend meetings, but sit there and think of what i now know about the society and its past.i just feel so confused at the moment with religion.. its a bit like who shot jfk ,did man really land on the moon etc .. except it involves all of us( just wish i knew the truth).
the only thing that is keeping me there right now is that all my family are in the "truth" ,,and i cant just stay at home and be shunned which i have recently experienced ( was inactive for a while) .. if i knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that i have found the true faith and discern that it is definately the true faith, i would then make a stand and nothing would stop me .
already i am reading the scriptures without the aid of wt publications and what i am reading is amazing .i am starting to feel that i am now getting closer to god by simply doing this coupled with prayer.. there must be one true faith as there was in the first century.
Hi LT
Flash:
"The Beast" of Revelation, that destroys the Harlot, is a different beast to those in Daniel.
Yes, once again I have to agree with the WTS on their take that Beast = Government is a rule, so regardless of where they're found the meaning applies.
How is it that the kings give the beast their power (chp17),
I know your gonna hate hearing this...I think the WTS has got it right that the League of Nations and the United Nations (member states) are the subjects here along with there willing nation accomplaces around the world. My guess would be that the Security Counsel passes a resolution and the Member States Accept it and non-member states honor it.
bewail the one the beast devours (chp18),
IMO, Not all the nations will be in complete agreement with the desision to destroy religion.
and finally fight alongside the beast (chp19) if it represents all "the world's governments"?
I'm speculating here, my guess these would be that the nations who are not members of the UN.
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Evergreen:Several years, though I don't want to say, as there are some folks on this site still trying to guess my age, and I'm a tease that way
From reading a recent post of yours, I have to guess your in your early 40's?
The defining moment for me, regarding the WTS, was reading John 20:28.
Shortly after that I found Freeminds and this place, and about four months later I Disassociated from the platform.
Now that was BOLD. I bet they were all shocked!
the questions from readers has affirmed that the 144,000 is a literal number.
it states that some numbers in revelation are symbolic and others are literal.
it argues that since the great crowd which is unnumbered is mentioned right after the 144,000, then logically the 144,000 would have to be literal.
LittleToe
Nonetheless, I've no desire to continue to back you into a corner.
Take care, and no doubt we'll meet on another thread
Yes LT, you too, I will look forward to it!
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Leolaia
If so, then why is the word for "lamb" arnios in Revelation 7:10, 14:1 (and throughout the book), and amnos in John 1:29. It isn't even the same word .
I tell you the truth Leolaia, I have never been convinced that all the word dissection done by the WTS and other religious groups is warranted or that their applications are correct. I've always been sceptical about the bible authors being 'that precise' about the words they're choosing. I believe people can get so lost in the details they lose sight of the Bigger Picture, the forrest for the trees as the saying goes, ( this is in not meant in anyway as a slam against you or LT ).
See you around the Board!
i,m going to cut to the chase here .i am not long viewing this website and am fascinated at much of what i have read.currently i attend meetings, but sit there and think of what i now know about the society and its past.i just feel so confused at the moment with religion.. its a bit like who shot jfk ,did man really land on the moon etc .. except it involves all of us( just wish i knew the truth).
the only thing that is keeping me there right now is that all my family are in the "truth" ,,and i cant just stay at home and be shunned which i have recently experienced ( was inactive for a while) .. if i knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that i have found the true faith and discern that it is definately the true faith, i would then make a stand and nothing would stop me .
already i am reading the scriptures without the aid of wt publications and what i am reading is amazing .i am starting to feel that i am now getting closer to god by simply doing this coupled with prayer.. there must be one true faith as there was in the first century.
Hi evergreen
Flash- ...But you are right about all the typical and antitypical stuff-Whats that all about? Its like they have truths and half truths(also stuff they have just plain got wrong) and then all that flipflopping thats been going on. I,ll have to read about the 3rd heaven stuff -not read it yet.
You already know the answer! The Third Heaven 'New Light' is OUTRAGEOUS!
I strongly feel that the GB have to try to and explain every single scripture ,after all they are the channel of communication between God and his people.
And I might add, they have out-of control Egos too!
Highlite the text and click on the Quotation Marks next to the Emoticon Face. Also, if you want to UN-DO something, highlite and click on the symbol that looks like a can tipping over between the clipboard and the paperclip.Ps how do you box a statement sent in by someone so as i can bring up that point on the messge board????
