Posts by seattleniceguy

160

Laughing laughing laughing

by darcy in

jw
friends

wow.. so, you know i'm an active witness, very active.

hah.

and i'm not laughing at y'all, but wow, i can't believe how extensive this is.

seattleniceguy

Hi Darcy,

I'd be interested in a specific response to my post, if you're so inclined.

SNG

45

Special Campaign announced for September: Creation vs. Evolution

by sir82 in

jw
friends

we had a boe letter read recently.

the september 2006 awake will be 100% dedicated to the "creation vs. evolution" issue.. even the "young people ask" article will be something like "how can i defend my belief in creation in school?

also, i think one of the articles is entitled "does the bible support the notion that the earth was created in 6 24-hour days?".

I'm positive that this article will push more over the edge. Biblical creationism simply cannot compete with evolution. The evidence is just too overwhelming. So what's going to happen is, the Witnesses will place these articles throughout the community, sparking debates with householders. Some of the householders will be knowledgeable enough to point out the errors in the article, and as a result, some Witnesses will start to wake up and smell the coffee.

I hear in December they're going to have a cover-to-cover special issue on proof that the Earth is flat, too.

SNG

160

Laughing laughing laughing

by darcy in

jw
friends

wow.. so, you know i'm an active witness, very active.

hah.

and i'm not laughing at y'all, but wow, i can't believe how extensive this is.

seattleniceguy

Hello Darcy,

Welcome to the board. Always nice to see a new intelligent face.

I wanted to respond to one thing you said early on:

Not to offend, but why doesn't anyone here quote from recent literature instead of all this stuff that's years old. That's like criticicizing Windows 95, instead of examining Windows XP.

I used to feel exactly the same way. Criticizing Windows 95 in an attempt to show that Microsoft's products don't stand up against modern competitors (such as Mac OS X) would indeed be silly, as it wouldn't be an apples-apples comparison.

However, the unique thing about the WT Society is that they claim to have been God's sole channel of communication to humankind since being appointed in 1919. In fact, this is the central doctrine that establishes the authority of the Governing Body. So one might expect that intelligent and reasonable things have been published since that time.

Instead, the fact of the matter is that if you look back even a scant 20 or 30 years, the publications start getting really embarassing, really fast. Yes, they really did say that organ transplants were equivalent to cannibalism (http://www.reexamine.org/quotes/transplant.htm), and yes, if you had disagreed with them back then (even though you would have been absolutely correct) you would have risked being disfellowshipped and losing your friends and family.

Have you seen what they wrote in the 1920s? For some really good laughs, check this article out (http://www.reexamine.org/quotes/gravitation_and_electric_energy.htm), which boldly declares that gravity is a result of electrical attraction rather than mass as is universally accepted. My favorite part is where it talks about the various different kinds of atoms - gold, silver, lead, wood, or glass ("wood atoms"?! "glass atoms"?! I've never seen those on a periodic table!)

Obviously, it's completely crazy. But there are several important points to make here. First, even at the time, it would have been obvious to any educated person that the article was complete and unadulterated bullshit, excuse the expression. Clearly, the author was pulling this stuff directly from his uninformed imagination. And yet, "spiritual" (real: gullible) people took this as "the deep things of God." So first of all, you should ask yourself what your reaction would have been as an educated person if presented with this copy of the Golden Age back then. Would you have been right in laughing them off as nutjobs? Sure. But that raises a serious question. At exactly what point did they go from being nutjobs to God's sole channel?

And there's a more serious question. If you read carefully, you will find total fabrications (as in the Gravitation article above) and blatant misrepresentations of sources throughout the entire history of the organization. It seems that the Society has surprisingly little regard for accuracy. One might well wonder how such poor scholarship (to put it most generously) can have much to do with truth. The fact is that the authors don't seem to have much concern at all for getting it right.

There's one more reason that older publications are illuminating. The Society often retells its own history. Only when they do so, they introduce a lot of creative revisions. The story of what happened over 1975 is particularly deceptive. To hear the WT tell it, they never said anything and a couple overzealous lone wolves got all worked up over nothing. You might be surprised to find out how it really went down, by looking at all the things they actually did print. For example, they stated categorically that young people in the late 1960s would never go on to fulfill a career, and that this system was due to end in "a few years." (http://www.reexamine.org/quotes/1975.htm)

They also dramatically misrepresent their history when it comes to the things they said in 1914, 1925, and elsewhere. The big question is, if this is the truth, then why all the deception?

Anyway, I hope that provides some food for thought. Best wishes to you on your journey, and I hope to see you around!

SNG

587

Show us your picture

by Honesty in

jw
friends

.

that is, if you are able to without the prospect of facing a three-man kangaroo court appointed by jerhover to keep the congregation clean from apostate influences.. i'll go first: .

seattleniceguy

23

No secular evidence for Jesus. What does this imply?

by Spectrum in

a man that performed miracles including raising the dead has left no secular evidence.

but as i write this the question has come to mind of what ancient evidence constitutes verifiable, believable evidence that we can take to the bank?

we have the nt and the apocrypha, ancient texts that tell a story of the early christians.

seattleniceguy

We have the NT and the apocrypha, ancient texts that tell a story of the early christians. Why is any of this less believable regarding the existence of the central character, Jesus, than the characters of Josephus? How many of Josephus's characters are corroberated in the secular way that is expected of Jesus?

I don't think any ancient religious writings can become proof of the people that appear in them. For example, you probably would not suggest that the Epic of Gilgamesh is proof that Gilgamesh existed.

I'm not a historian, but it seems to me that evidence of the personhood of ancient characters would have to be via separate dispassionate sources. For example, if official records from separate countries name a king, it's probably a safe bet that that king (or at least someone claiming to be him) was around.

I guess perhaps the easiest way to think about the problem is to imagine that a religious group appears today and starts publishing letters about a miracle worker that they claim lived and died several decades ago. The members of the group appear to believe strongly in what they say. They claim he could raise the dead, heal the sick, and turn water into wine, and that he died in 1974, but unfortunately he left no physical evidence. Would such accounts convince you?

SNG

31

How do you know Satan didn't write the Bible?

by seattleniceguy in

jw
friends

the standard christian story on the bible is that god wrote it to let us humans know what's going on, lay down some rules, and tell us how to get saved from our pitiful state.

as everyone knows, i don't buy any portion of this.

but i have a question for the believers.

seattleniceguy

Hey jw,

I for one do not mind you bumping my cool but underutilized threads. :-)

SNG

8

What would happen if all the da'd, df'd and faders.........

by ButtLight in

from the same kh, decided to plan a sunday "date" and go to the meeting.

i was thinking about how many i know just from my small town here.

and there are alot.

seattleniceguy

If anything, the Witnesses would probably imagine that they had all realized en masse that they need to return to True Worship(tm).

I think it might be effective if 20 people (former Witnesses or otherwise) showed up in jeans and t-shirts with duct tape over their mouths to protest disfellowshipping. That might make a fairly powerful image. It would be the most effective played out in media coverage, like at a convention.

Then again, any form of resistence invariably causes Witnesses to think they are being persecuted, and therefore that they are truly God's Chosen People(tm).

SNG

6

United Nations Info.

by truth_be_told in

the bible says that the un will take down religion at some point.. whats interesting is that what the wtbs has said on this subject has stayed the same for many years.

new information came out in the 99 wt, this information has greater more far reaching implications than many really know.. although the wbts may well know the following but not wanting to go out on a limb they have never published this information.. 1) un meditation room- it has a single altar in the middle of the room dag hammarskjold said this about it "it is dedicated to the god whom man worships under many names and in many forms".

the un has a spiritual caucas that meets once a month.

seattleniceguy

Oops, sorry that was 1992 through October 9, 2001. Seems they were in a hurry to disassociate after an article exposing the membership was printed the day before in London's Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,565005,00.html

SNG

6

United Nations Info.

by truth_be_told in

the bible says that the un will take down religion at some point.. whats interesting is that what the wtbs has said on this subject has stayed the same for many years.

new information came out in the 99 wt, this information has greater more far reaching implications than many really know.. although the wbts may well know the following but not wanting to go out on a limb they have never published this information.. 1) un meditation room- it has a single altar in the middle of the room dag hammarskjold said this about it "it is dedicated to the god whom man worships under many names and in many forms".

the un has a spiritual caucas that meets once a month.

seattleniceguy

truth_be_told,

I trust you're aware that the Society joined the UN as an NGO between 1992 and 1999? See the following letter, posted on the official un.org website:

http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/pdfs/watchtower.pdf

SNG

14

Anyone remember the Awake on.....Gibbons?

by PopeOfEruke in

jw
friends

man i wanted a gibbon so much after reading that article......i musta been about 10 or so....i so wanted to hear the patter of the feet just like the article described it.

thinking back on it now....who the heck would keep a pet gibbon anyway?

and whats the point of a stupid article like that ?

seattleniceguy

LOL @ 5thGeneration. I like your sense of humor. :-)

SNG