Posts by Amazing

Family law varies from state to state, but when it comes to children, the laws are fairly close. You may want to conduct a Google search on Parental Rights, Family Law, etc. for your state.

Example (Tatoo law): I just conducted a search in Illinois on tatooing children under 18, which requires parental consent in Illinois. (http://tattoojoy.com/tattoo_laws/united_states,illinois,1.htm) I could not find anything immediately on religious baptism. But, I cannot imagine that a parent could stop a minor from being tatooed, but not from joining a religion until age 18.

FINDLAW.COM is a good resource. I looked up Family Law and here is a list of areas where the law legislates in Illinois. You may want to type in your state and see if the topic of religion or baptism comes up. Usually, the law leaves the issue of religion up to the parents to control, unless there is a disput in custody, and thus which parent's religious affiliation will prevail. - http://family.findlaw.com/

If you have a serious legal issus, call a Family Law attorney in your area.

Jim Whitney

2

DEAR WTBTS: IT's PLAYOFF TIME !!!!!

by Honesty in

jw
friends

my friend, jamie is in the playoffs !!!.

the watchtower bible and tract society has dominated the playoffs for the last time.. thanks to jamie, they are being delivered another nail in their coffins:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsyz9vam2a8.

Amazing

HI Honesty,

I tried to watch the video, but it stopped every three to seven words. It was taking forever between pauses, so I could not finish it. Is there a text version that I could read?

Jim Whitney

8

Greetings

by Jehovah-1 in

jw
friends

i am new here and interested in the speak.

i am happy.

nice to see so many gathered together here.

Amazing

Hi Bob,

Usually, most newcomers here get a hearty welcome. So, welcome. Some, also get challenging questions on their first post. Therefore, I have a couple for you.

You said in part:

" ... the plight of many of Christendom's defacing groups."

First: Few people ever use the term "Christendom" except Jehovah's Witnesses or ex-Jehovah's Witnesses. I was shocked one time when I saw it used in a booklet published by the John Birch Society. Use of key words is a give-away that a person has been associated with the JWs in some way. How did you come by that word?

Second:What "defacing groups" do you speak of when you use this expression? You state "many" such groups. There are a few, such as Mormons and perhaps Adventists and a few other fringe groups. The rest are pretty much mainline and do not have a 'defacing' affect on people. Usually, JWs and for a time ex-JWs have this view of the mainline religions until they get to know them and find out they are mostly very good.

Thanks in advance if you answer these two questions.

Jim Whitney

40

Noah's Ark ....How did Noah......................

by KAYTEE in

jw
friends

how did noah put bitumen on the underside of the ark, did he get his family to lift it up allowing him to slide under and paint this on?

the underside being the most important face to be treated needed to be waterproof to make sure it did not allow leaks to occur, and had to stand up to extreme conditions for a whole year.

kt.

Amazing

Kaytee,

Noah likely used the same ship building means that has been used to this day ... one starts a frame-scaffold type structure, and build the ship inside of it. It is high enough to permit getting underneath the ship hull. Noah was given 100-years to complete the project, so it would not have been far-fetched for him to have plenty of time to plan construction, and/or even have a few trial and errors.

The problem with the Noah story has more to do with the fact that there never could have been a world-wide flood that put all land under water up to a depth of at least 12,000 feet. Geological evidence is flatly against such a notion. Noah could not have been out on the Ark with a smapling of all animal species (or even the base species) for a year as the Bible states. The fish would have all died, because food at that elevation above any food source. The earth would have been totally barron after the flood, and no food would have been available for Noah and company. Finally, there is not enough storage areas for all that water to have flooded the planet, and then gone away. The flood was likely a local event in which Noah and family took as many animals as they could for a month or so. Legend expanded the story, and when the Hebrews adopted it, they took it as an allegorical lesson. What many people do not understand about the Jewish faith is that a lot of the Biblical lessons are meant as allegory to teach lessons ... and are not to be taken literally.

Did Jesus and the Apostles refer to the Flood as real? Yes, but they never once said anything about the flood being global. There is good geological evidence that the Medeterreanan Sea brok through the narrow land bridge near Istanbul (Constantinople) between Greece and Turkey and flooded the region we know today as the Black Sea. This could have been the result of a small asteroid hitting the ocean elsewhere, and creating massive costal flooding. Another theory is that there was a major earthquake in the region resulting in a tsunami (tidal wave) that broke the land bridge. Again, as legends spread, they take on a new life as various embellishment are added and "refined" .

Jim Whitney

19

Let's Review: How the Watchtower Society Uses Quickbuilds to Make More $$$

by under_believer in

jw
friends

i posted something similar to this in another thread, but i decided that this is an important subject, and something that a lot of people don't realize, so i expanded it into its own post.

and we can always use a review now and then, so that lurkers, active witnesses, and newly ex-witnesses can catch up.

according to the watchtower society, one of the best examples of god's holy spirit operating on the organization is the building program.

Amazing

Hi Under,

Amazing, thank you for the corrections, but I believe your information may be a decade or so out of date. I don't want to outright disagree, however, so I will try to get some more information on this before I speak further.

You may be right about my information being out of date somewhat. However, I have followed this issue since I left the organization, and their interest rate has fluctuated from 3% to 6% and then back again. If there is a change, it is very new. As for legal interest in the KH properties, I take my cue from working in real estate law and practices. If the Society increased their ownership rights, it would still not do them much good in the long run, and I am not sure just what they would accomplish.

On the first point, the fact that the Society charges interest at all is bad in my book, but the fact that they sometimes (or often) profit is even worse. I will see if I can find some information about loan rates used locally of late. Nevertheless, the point I made about disallowing other lenders is true and stands--you have to ask yourself why this is the case. Perhaps I see this effective loan monopoly, enforced by congregational sanction, as being more sinister than you do.

Initially, when I took over handling the mortgage payments to the Society, I was surprised to learn that they charged interest ... and it bothered me too. However, there are actually legitimate and legal reasons for do so. Inflation in the 1970s was about 12%, but the Society was only charging 3%, so they were losing money. The interest was originally set up just to keep pace with the historical inflation rate of 3%, which is what the inflation rate is today. That is break-even. Secondly, the original Kingdom Hall fund was a private program donated by some very wealthy JWs when they died. Their will stipulated that a modest rate be charged ( I don't recall if it stipulated 3%.) So, when the Society took over management of the fund, that have to, by law, agree to and charge some kind of interest. JWs, and many ex-JWs (myself included) felt that interest is wrong because the Bible says to help a brother in need without charging interest. But, examination of the text (I think it is in Matthew ... I do not have access to a Bible right now) is really talking about helping someone down and out on their luck. Whreas, building a place to meet is not absolutely necessary. As noted above, I changed my view because of working with money and real estate and observing how a 3% charge is very modest ... and not in the profiteering category.

Secondly, I was told by a local elder who was very close to the process that the Society continues to own our Kingdom Hall, held in trust, even after the loan is completed. Maybe the policy has changed since your time? Even if what you say is true, and the "decline clause" is the only way the Society can get their mitts on the Hall, you have to admit that the Society in the US is in decline and the scenario you outline (either widespread apostasy or, more likely, congregational desertion) is likely to be more and more common as time goes on, meaning the Society will come into direct possession of more and more Kingdom Halls.

Yes, the Society could have strengthened their legal rights in Kingdom Hall properties beyond simply taking it back in the event of the demise of the congregation. But ... if they become the legal owner, with all rights and responsibilities, then they cannot issue a mortgage on the property because there is no borrower or buyer. The congregation has to be the borrower-buyer and own the property. Another way to look at it is that if the Society now "owns" the Kingdom Halls, they can only charge rent to the congregation ... but not a mortgage. A mortgage contract stipulates that the one making the loan payments becomes the owner upon repayment of the loan. (A Trust Deed on the other hand stipulates that the borrower already owns the property, and the loan note is merely secured by the property.) California and Oregon, for example, are Trust Deed states. Whereas Illinois is still a mortgage state. Nonetheless, whether the congregation has a trust deed or a mortgage, they are legally the owners, buyers, and borrowers. So, upon the sale of the Kingdom Hall to buy or build another, the congregation would always own the net equity to be used toward a new purchase. I agree with you about the conitnued decline of JWs. If the JWs start to have significant decreases, the Society will end up owning and selling a lot of Kingdom Halls and will likely get the proceeds if the original congregation that bought the Hall and paid off the Mortgage or Trust Deed have demised. But, what will they do with all that profit? Who in the Society will benefit? Will the GB and the top executives and lawyers start taking trips to Las Vegas, Tahiti, or the Bahammas?

Third, regardless of the original reason behind the quickbuild program, I believe this is the reason it exists today. I've seen remodel after remodel--in my area, there is more than one going on in my circuit at any given time. My father in law, heavily involved with the program, has over the last 30 years worked on more than 150 Regional Building Committee projects--and he passed on quite a few. In many cases the many brothers did not feel their Hall even needed upgrading, they felt it was immodest--but they were overruled by the elder body and a rubber stamp "yes" vote, the reasoning being that we need to put forth a slick, beautiful effort in order to win converts.

You may be correct that the reason for the newer Kingdom Halls and Upgrades is for show ... that is, afterall, the nature of the Watchtower Society ... to be ever-concerned with their marketing image. Or, it could be that they have so much money, they have to find ways to spend it to keep looking like a religion, rather than a profit-making venture. The Society does little with charity outside the pathetic stippends given to their Missionaries, Pioneers, Circuit Overseers, Bethel workers, etc. So, after publishing and printing billions of pieces of literature, I guess building projects are next. A lot of tax-free equity is held in Watchtower owned assets, like Assembly Halls, their factories, farms, and the University at Patterson. Perhaps in a poetic sense, it is all stored up for the victims of various forms of abuse who may prevail in current litiagtion against the Society. The Society has moved money around the world ... and I suspect it is not for charitable reasons. Time will tell. I look forward to your postings updating and correcting information so we can see what the Watchtower beats is doing these days. Jim Whitney

19

Let's Review: How the Watchtower Society Uses Quickbuilds to Make More $$$

by under_believer in

jw
friends

i posted something similar to this in another thread, but i decided that this is an important subject, and something that a lot of people don't realize, so i expanded it into its own post.

and we can always use a review now and then, so that lurkers, active witnesses, and newly ex-witnesses can catch up.

according to the watchtower society, one of the best examples of god's holy spirit operating on the organization is the building program.

Amazing

Hi Under and Stevec,

Under: You are mistaken on some points.

First, the money loaned is currently at 3%, which is about the rate of inflation. Therefore, the Society breaks even on the loan program. $200,000 loaned at 3% for 20 years (240 months) will repay approx. $266,000. I worked on these loans and typically they are not for more than 15-years to 20-years. For a time, the Society raised the loan rate as high as 6% when inflation was higher ... and if these loans are not yet retired, they will make some money. Jehovah's Witness Elders are aware of this, and have reported the fact to the congregation (at least we did in our congregation). Most JWs believe in the religion, and do not mind the Society getting extra money in this way. I have also seen the Society reduce the loan rate on existing loans. In such cases, they have offered the congregation the opportunity to continue the existing payment, and pay down the loan faster, or reduce payments if they feel that it is needed.

Secondly, the local congregation owns the Kingdom Hall with all rights, responsibilities, benefits, and control. About 20-years ago, after the Society lost the lawsuit in the Bonham, Texas case, they decided to be put on the deed ONLY in the event that the local congregation went into demise ... then, and only then would the property revert back to the Watchtower Society. Demise was defined if a majority of the congregation became appostate and attempted to take control of the Kingdom Hall, or if the congregation dwindled such that they were no longer viable. Most mainline Protestant churches operate this way, except for the apostate issue.

So, if a congregation builds a new hall for $200,000 in materials and free labor, the Watchtower Society will not benefit. If the congregation decides to sell the Kingdom Hall, they will then use the proceeds to buy land and materials necessary to build a new facility. Because of the gain in value, they often do not need to borrow, or it they do, their loans are much smaller. Usually this is a trade off. Where excess proceeds result from a sale of a Hall, the congregation is free to save the money for future maintenance, repairs, and expansion, and/or donate some to the Watchtower Society.

Third, the Society went into the quick-build program many years ago to meet a demand of a lot of growth. Later on this was expanded to include upgrading older Kingdom Halls. Some of the loan money does NOT come from the Society, but from a private arragement set up many decades ago in a trust account for King Hall contruction. The Society merely manages the fund and must return all proceeds to it. However, the fund did not keep up with growth, and the Society also set up its own loan funding. Since I have left, I lost tracl of the ratio of the private fund to the Society fund.

Currently, their growth has greatly slowed in the United States. Any quick-builds now are likely due to expansion into a better building with better parking, or the congregation is responding to a re-zoning issue, and using the opportunity to build a better facility.

I do not like the Watchtower Society, and left the religion years ago. I do believe that they have a lot of funds tucked away in various bank accounts, including foreign safe-havens. I have a record of some of these accounts and the account numbers. I also hold a list of about 100 of their corporations. But, we need to be realistic and honest about how we represent the claims we make against them. There is such a thing a liable, and the Witchtower has shown itself quite willing to sue ex-JWs.

Stevenc: The Society holds a mortgage or trust deed, depending on the real estate laws in each state. Once the loan is paid off, the congregation is given a Grant Deed or Warranty Deed, depending on the laws in each state. The Society stays on the deed as a beneficiary in trust in the event that the congregation goes into demise ... as I explained to Under above.

Jim Whitney

5

RUTHERFORD'S COURTESANS

by badboy in

jw
friends

it is alleged that rutherford had courtesans.. any info on this?.

Amazing

Badboy,

Don't use the search button ... instead ... use member directory. Go to Farkel's screen name, and start with the most recenting postings and go backwards. That avenue works. The search function no longer works and has not for a long time.

Jim Whitney

5

RUTHERFORD'S COURTESANS

by badboy in

jw
friends

it is alleged that rutherford had courtesans.. any info on this?.

Amazing

Badboy,

A poster named "Larc" (deceased) provided some strongly suggestive information on this issue. His aunt was one of the women who accompanied Rutherford to the mansion, Beth Sarim, near San Diego. There was a large group that stayed in that house ... which was not all that big. This left the bedroom and kitchen for Rutherford and Larc's aunt to sleep. There is other more tangy evidence which is detail the best by Farkel. He and I posted on this topic, but he did a better job of getting more facts. You can find it posted sometime in the last year or two under his screen name, Farkel. - Enjoy, it is fascinating.

Jim Whitney