If we could have a 'meter' to measure control-freak-ism, and totally benign is 0(like a good milk-toast Methodist) and totally evil and dangerous is 10(like Jim Jones or David Koresh groups) then I would say that the LDS are a 3 and moving toward a 2 ... they used to be a7or 8 in the 1800s. The Watchtower was about a 4 in the 1960s and moving toward a 3 ... but they got stuck at 4 and seem to be moving back to a 5 ... in my opinion.
Amazing
JoinedPosts by Amazing
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16
Compare Bethel with the LDS HQ in Salt Lake City
by POs Son ini have been to both, bethel (all 3 complexes: brooklyn, walkill, paterson plus the jersey city stanley theater) as a teenager, and to tour the lds (mormon) complex in salt lake city as an adult.
i did bethel as a "witness" child, and slc as a totally non-jw adult.
the lds complex seemed more open to the public, inviting and comfortable.
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Is the Harvest Inn (Patterson NY) owned by a Witness?
by POs Son ini was looking at reviews on www.tripadvisor.com and saw that the harvest inn near patterson is highly rated (though clearly a lower end mo-tel).
one writer even commented at how nice it is to wake up to kingdom melodies in the morning there.. .
comments lead me to believe that the place is jw owned and primarily caters to visitors of the farms and bus tours of same.. .
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Amazing
Thanks Sir82 ... yes, Patterson Inn ... good ... now I remember.
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Would things have been different if you had a "normal" life in the truth?
by truthseeker inyes, the title of the thead is ironic i know, but i couldn't think of an alternative.. what do i mean by "normal" life in the truth?
well, having good friends you grew up with.
having a social life.
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Amazing
Truthseeker,
What you describe as a "normal" life was closer to what JWs were enjoying in the late 1960s when I joined. We actually had fun, and did nice things together. Some Sundays the whole congregation would agree to rent a hall in another town close to the beach, and have our meeting there, bring good food, and then go to the beach, which was close by ... and yes, we had beer. We played, hiked, and sometimes tgwo or three families took vacations together. We did this a few times, like traveling to Yellowstone for two weeks, or to Disneyland for a week. We spent long evenings watching movies on TV or playing cards. We had champagne and danced at weddings. We had sports events, albeit loosely formed teams and not heavy on the scoring, but enough to know we had a game ... and of course we did our usual JW stuff, studied together, and there were less DF-ings and less screwing around, and less overall trouble.
That lasted until about 1975, and then it appeared that the Society started to open up even more ... "Service" meant more than going door to door, but also applied to almost all other good works. A Bible-trained conscience was the goal, rather than always turning to the Society to dictate out conduct and conscience and so on ... there was a time from 1976 until the early 1980s that we could even be a little bit open to DF'd people ... help them to meetings and at least say a brief greeting at the Hall to let them know we still cared ... then, as 1981 ended, and Ray Franz was DF'd ... it all changed, like a damn iron curtain came down ... how I and my family lasted until 1992 it beyond me ... and
When I read this site and others and see what JWs deal with today, and what ex-JWs say upon their exit, I just cannot understand how anyone puts up with the Watchtower organization. I am more and more pleased that I awakened and left, and got my family out and a few friends ... and now we really have normal lives!
Simply Amazing
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Is the Harvest Inn (Patterson NY) owned by a Witness?
by POs Son ini was looking at reviews on www.tripadvisor.com and saw that the harvest inn near patterson is highly rated (though clearly a lower end mo-tel).
one writer even commented at how nice it is to wake up to kingdom melodies in the morning there.. .
comments lead me to believe that the place is jw owned and primarily caters to visitors of the farms and bus tours of same.. .
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Amazing
POs Son,
I don't know if Harvest Inn is JW owned, except for the suggestive book bags and Bible covers sold in their gift shop, that was noted above by Jamie, and advertized on their web site.
There is a Hotel at the Watchtower Patterson site that the Society owns, and pays property taxes. It was part of the compromise to get a construction permit for the JW university ... that is, to have some portion of the property be liable for property tax. I forget the name of that hotel at the moment ... but then I really no longer care. But the point is, the Society will do what it takes to do their thing, and principles of making a profit matter not if it means building what they like.
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Catholicism--Curious About It
by White Dove indoes anyone here have any catholic experience or have friends who are catholic?
although i'm wiccan all the way, i'm still checking things out and would like input about it..
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Amazing
Robert7
When you look at its history, it has been a more dangerous religion than the JWs. It may not be a high control group now, but it used to be for centuries. People were killed for owning the bible, or talking against the church. The church meddled in politics, killed dissodents, and engaged in wars.
How's that? What solid, credible, historical facts to you have to support these assertions?
Here are some solid historical facts as just one example of the inaccuracies of the above assertions:
- It was the Catholic Church that first compiled what we call the New testament.
- It was the Catholic Church that debated for centuries what books belong in the Bible.
- It was the Catholic Church that finally established the NT canon, and declared it inspired by the 8th century (700 years before any other Christian denomination existed)
- It was the Catholic Church that urged the first mass printing of Bibles, starting with the Douay Rheims Bible, which preceded the King James Bible. The first printed Bible was Gutenberg, which was done as an example of the invention of the printing press. But, it was the Catholic Church that got the mass production going.
Tell me how this jives with the assertion that the Church killed people for owning a Bible when the Church made sure they were printed for people to buy? Could it be that some of that good old fashioned JW brainwashing is still messing with your sense of history?
Example: Some anti-Catholics have quoted the Council of Trent in 1546 to say that the Church prohibited reading or owning a Bible. The truth is that the council fathers decreed on April 8, 1546, (over 70 years before the printing of the Catholic Douay Bible) ". . . the synod, following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety and reverence all the books both of the Old and New Testament, -- seeing that one God is the author of both, . . . ." But no where in the records of the Council can anyone find any such alleged prohibition of reading or owning a Bible. In fact, the Church has granted special blessings for any Catholic who reads the entire Bible, OT and NT. The Church at times has strongly discouraged reading fake works purporting to be inspired or Biblical.
What we have today with respect to the Bible was a product of the Catholic Church ... and to assert otherwise is to display a gross ignorance of history, or a willingness to spread any sort of nonsense without checking facts and sources.
Likewise the other assertions you made are not accurate, but I thought that one example was good for now.
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DNCall Unmasked - Part 1 of 5
by DNCall instartfragment.
prompted by the thread started by wha happened (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/179005/1/a-good-friend-of-mine-was-dfd-this-week), i thought i would introduce myself and tell my story.. i am frank kavelin.
my wife barbara and i were recently disfellowshipped for apostasy.
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Amazing
Frank,
I am enjoying your series. You mention Bonnie Boyd Heath. If I recall correctly, she was a close friend of Rutherford's lady friend, Berta. According to Berta's nephew, Carl Thornton, Berta was very attractive and lived with Rutherford at Beth Sarim. She also traveled with him, along with others. Carl use to post on this forum as Larc, and died a few years ago. We were able to meet in person here in Chicago. No proof existed that Carl was aware as to whether Rutherford was having sex with Berta, but he had a lot of strongly suggestive evidence that was the case ... and in those days it was common for JWs (Bible Students) to live together, because they viewed the superior authorities as of the Devil, and registering marriages with the Devil was not needed. Well, that was certainly Joe Rutherford's excuse, anyway.
I will contniue to follow your parts ... it is fascinating to read. Thanks. - Jim
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Watchtower Moving its Headquarters from USA?
by Amazing ini may be behind times, but i have not seen this issue come up.
i have had some contact with jws inside the organization who said that the society is planning to move its headquarters from brooklyn, ny to canada, lock, stock, and barrel.
is this an urban legend, a jw pulling my leg, or is it factual?
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Amazing
Thanks for the information everyone. The JW did tell me that Wallkill will still have printing operations, but that the New York operations are going to be run from Canada. Your clarifications were very helpful. Thanks again.
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Watchtower Moving its Headquarters from USA?
by Amazing ini may be behind times, but i have not seen this issue come up.
i have had some contact with jws inside the organization who said that the society is planning to move its headquarters from brooklyn, ny to canada, lock, stock, and barrel.
is this an urban legend, a jw pulling my leg, or is it factual?
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Amazing
I may be behind times, but I have not seen this issue come up. I have had some contact with JWs inside the organization who said that the Society is planning to move its headquarters from Brooklyn, NY to Canada, lock, stock, and barrel. Is this an urban legend, a JW pulling my leg, or is it factual? Is there any credible information to support the claim? Thanks in advance for your help.
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Letter sufficient grounds for DFing?
by dozy ina question here mainly for ex-elders etc , though all input would be helpful.. a letter that i wrote some time ago confidentially to an elder regarding the usual issues about the gb etc has come into the hands of a couple of members of the congregation who are regarding it a prime facie evidence that i am an apostate.
though the letter isn't especially incriminating as such , it does flag up several mistakes that the wtbts has made.
the brother has described me as "verging on apostate.".
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Amazing
I posted a response earlier, and do not see it, though my screen name showed up for a while ... and other posts seems to be missing. I put a lot of work into the post, and hate to lose it. I wonder if the board Admin can fix the problem?
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Letter sufficient grounds for DFing?
by dozy ina question here mainly for ex-elders etc , though all input would be helpful.. a letter that i wrote some time ago confidentially to an elder regarding the usual issues about the gb etc has come into the hands of a couple of members of the congregation who are regarding it a prime facie evidence that i am an apostate.
though the letter isn't especially incriminating as such , it does flag up several mistakes that the wtbts has made.
the brother has described me as "verging on apostate.".
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Amazing
Dozy,
Please read all of this post:
Since you do not want to be DF'd, then there are steps you can take to try and avoid this possible consequence.
1. It would be helpful is you could someway share the letter (not your name) in an email or PM. The content of the letter and its forcefulness are important factors. I was forcibly DA'd due to a rumor first started by the Elders, and then believing their own rumors. However, my letter to the Society and follow-up letter to the Elders determined my fate. You may PM me on this forum, or email me at: [email protected].
2. Go to the Elders before they come to you, if it not already too late. I did not read all of the follow-up postings, so I am not sure if you said anything more on whether that took place.
3. Express your concern that while you have some things you need help "understanding," you still accept the F&DS at God's appointed channel of Truth. This should help you.
4. There are some good Watchtower articles you can find on CDs that will help you in how doubts are treated. Do not take these articles with you or refer to them, except in an emergency. It will make you appear to be overly prepared, as though you are only interested in preventing being DF'd. You have to appear humble, vulnerable, submissive, innocent, repentant; and for God's sake, shed some tears, but not too many! But the articles on 'helping those with doubts' will give you some ideas on how to behave and how to form your wording and attitude.
5. All of this is only recommended, of course, because you really want to be a JW, and do feel regret at deviating from the organization. If you already do not accept the Watchtower and the F&DS or their doctrines ... then you need to consider the following:
6. If you are an atheist, or have no concern for any integrity to God and to yourself, and if you really do not feel any repentance, then steps 1 through must be play acted, a lie. If that is the case, then so be it, but again, there are no guarantees, as Elders can sometimes spot liars.
7. If you are still Christian, but simply do not want to believe and accept the JW system, but still remain among them without being DF'd then you have a problem. Your letter, depending on how incriminating it is, is enough testimony to get you DF'd for apostasy. Sorry, but anything in writing is enough, there is no need for additional 'witnesses' as far as the Society and Elders are concerned. All the rest depends on how you are perceived, how you act, and what you say from this point forward.
So, assuming that Step 7 is descriptive of you, here are my thoughts: As a Christian, you should not lie. You can be honest, and still possibly avoid being DF'd, but it will not be easy and there are no guarantees. If you come back to this board as DF'd, don't be surprised. But, again, take the initiative and go to the Elders with this point of view. I have inserted some points in blue ( ... ) to explain why you need to use certain cautions):
"Brother (preferably one Elder or brothers if two Elders. Make sure you do not see or know that the original Elder who had your letter is the Elder you are seeking help from, as you are obviously already his unspoken adversary, and he will act to protect his own interests and make you look like an apostate. Ask a different Elder or two. You want to appear innocent. And if they get the original Elder, act innocent and say that you are pleased to see him.) I asked to meet with you brother(s), because I wrote something I regret, expressing doubts about some of the things I don't understand. (Be vague and non-descript. Do not accuse the organization of anything or say that you do not believe a certain teaching, just say that you do not understand.) So, brothers, in an effort to get help, I wrote up some notes about my confusion and shared it with Elder _________ in confidence to get his help. Somehow, what I shared with him has been passed around the congregation and has caused some to wonder if I am leaning the wrong way. (Do not use the word 'apostate' in any way, as that loaded word alone will automatically put you in a bad light psychologically.) I did not mean to cause any concern in the congregation, but rather I am seeking help from you brothers to better understand some issues. I wish that Elder Trustworthy had been more careful, maybe somehow he accidentally dropped my notes. (Even though the Elder betrayed your confidence, you do not want to hit on him too hard, as it will make you appear in the wrong, even if you are in the right. You need to appear as though you are not his adversary, and no threat to him.) So, can we talk and pray about this, and help me get some answers, to get Jehovah's thoughts on things, and put this matter to rest?"
Do not, under any circumstance, put anything into writing. That is what got you into this situation in the first place. If your letter is recovered and discussed, do not insist on covering every point. Let things drop off as really unimportant, and let the Elders convince you of you errors. Work with the Elders. Pick out one or two Elders that you respect. If you do not respect any of them, which is quite reasonable, then choose the lesser of the evils. Do not start with three Elders, as that starts to look like a Judicial Committee. Believe me, I have been an Elder and know how the psychology works with unspoken suggestion. On one JC I sat on, three of us were just standing around in the back of the Hall, when a brother started asking our advice ... and before we knew it, we were meeting with him and his family. And while we never called is a JC, it functioned that way, and action was taken from what otherwise was a small wrong by one of the brother's children. By picking one Elder or two at the most, you appear to be seeking help and guidance. You make them feel special and needed as Shepherds. Remember that Elders first role is an agent of the Watchtower Society. They are groomed, molded, trained, appointed, and maintained by the Society. They function to 'protect' the congregation, and in so doing, are not acting as much in a healing role, as they are as Judge, Jury, and Prosecution. They are in essence Watchtower style Cops, to enforce Watchtower rules, and your interests are in last place. You are the accused. This is unspoken, but it underpins their prime function. However, they have also had a measure of training in being Shepherds (albeit very poor training), they still have some humanity, and if you approach them from this perspective, it will help offset their prime role as agents of the Society. Especially if you take the initiative to work with them. All this depends on what you originally wrote, and how you acted and how you act now, and your personal integrity to yourself and to God. If my above idea does not fit with you, and you cannot play act that way, then don't do it.
Last but not least. None of the above is guaranteed, and you still have a good chance on being DF'd. Why? Because Elders are also unpredictable, adversarial by function, and may have another concern or agenda that you are not aware. For example, you may have at one time or an other said things in conversation that have innocently or deliberately gotten back to the Elders. Unknown to you, they may already have you on a watch list. I have been there on both sides, the watch-er and the watch-ee. If that is the case, they may take any approach as simply a ruse to get off the hook, and decide to DF first and ask questions later. When I was in your boat, my first letter was written to the Society. It was not about teachings, but about local conduct toward my family and suggested some criminal issues (I had reported a child molester to the Sheriff). The Society did not respond to me, but sent a letter with a copy of my letter to the local Elders. They sent out two District Overseer visits back to back and a Circuit Overseer. They sent in a Special Representative to move in and become part of the Body of Elders. Then they trumped up a charge that I started my own Church, and then two years later the Society notified me that the local congregation Body of Elders (Judicial Committee) determined that I had Disassociated myself. Not one word was stated as to nature of the charge or evidence. The Society will not put such things into writing to avoid liable in case it is untrue. I was given a last opportunity to work with the local Elders. They showed no concern for me or the issues of criminal activity. I tried to work with the local Elders, but they deliberately made it impossible. I wrote a 29 page letter outline my theological concerns to help generate discussion ... bad move on my part as that letter came back at me during legal depositions against the Society. However, I knew I was already toast, and my letter, sent to each Elder, was designed to help them in case any one them privately had their own concerns. They never even called to say what action they were taking or if I could meet with them ... they simply announced my DA, and called several congregations in other states to make sure I was duly marked.
Take Note: All of my above advice depends much on your actual circumstances, what you actually wrote, and how your local Elders will respond. Any or ALL of these unknown variables may have already sealed your fate. If you can, please find a way to share your letter with me, not on the board, as the Society monitors this and other ex-JW boards, and give me more details (without names or locations) as I don't need that information. I have been out formally 14 years, and do not have anymore contacts on the inside of the organization. This way, I can better determine what you may be going through.
I do not like to post my real name on discussion boards anymore as I work in classified jobs, and background searches pick up this stuff, and cause me to have to answer silly questions. If you need to verify anything about me, contact Randy Watters at http://www.Freeminds.org and ask him if Jay Walter, aka Amazing) is a good resource.
Jay