Older Tom: Yep, the WTS needlessly contributes to breaking up families. And, those families that are together in the organization, are often not all that happy. They may stay together for the sdake of the organization, but it is often just appearances. The only tru bond that the WTS effectively manages to strengthen and extol is love for the organization, a lifeless, human creation that has no purpose but to propagate itself. - Amazing
Amazing
JoinedPosts by Amazing
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Does the Watchtower break up famelies?
by OlderTom inmy word it does.. when i started studying with the witlesses all of my family and inlaws deserted me for following a stupit cult.
my wife divorced me and my children won't talk to me.. that's ok because according to jdubs that proves it's the truth.. as i progressed in "the truth(tm)" all my friends started to abandon me because i was always going to those booring meetings.. when i found someone i liked in "the truth" and started associating with her, some of my witness friends tried to break up the friendship.. ie break up another family before it even starts.. after i married her without getting the elder permission, some of my jdub friends tried to df me, to show how much they loved me.. when they failed to df me some of my witless friends decided to shun me anyway even though the elders pronounced us no guilty.. i should have sued the bastards for slander.
today i'd just give him (the instigator) a good hiding.
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Cults or mere Abusive groups?
by Amazing indefining what a cult is, is difficult.
similarly, in science, there is no established definition for what a weed is; at least i have found none.
there is no clear-cut way to separate and define a weed from other non-weed plant life by logical methods.
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Amazing
Defining what a cult is, is difficult. Similarly, in science, there is no established definition for what a weed is; at least I have found none. There is no clear-cut way to separate and define a weed from other non-weed plant life by logical methods. The best definition I ever heard as to defining a weed, is simply a plant that you do not like. Likewise, a 'Cult'can just as easily be a religion or any group that we do not like. One person's cult is another person's most lofty and holy way to worship and serve God or society.
Cults, nevertheless, like weeds, are recognized instinctively by most of the people. They just know one when they see one. Weeds and cults grow where not cultivated by normal people. Weeds and cults kill off other plants we like. Weeds are usually ugly and Cults have unpleasant features. Weeds often have prickles that sting. Cults often have rules and behavior that is harmful. Farmers can tell you
all about broad leaf weeds that harm their crops that eventually become our food. Homeowners can tell you all about dandelions that ruin otherwise beautiful Kentucky Bluegrass lawns. Ex-cult members can often talk at length about ruined lives.In America, a 'Cult' is usually understood to be an abusive environment where the leaders teach weird and often harmful doctrines; and where the minds of the believers are controlled. In some countries a 'Cult' is any group the government does not like, and the government may elect to take repressive measures.
My best definition of a cult is: "Any situation, be it government, religion, business, social clubs, organized crime, dictatorships, etc., where power and authority is concentrated and centralized in a few or maybe just one person. The power they wield is all-controlling, and often corrupts the leaders into believing that they have some claim, be it education, experience, superior mentality, or divine right to rule over those who follow them or those who are forced to live under their system. Cults lack the presence of an appropriate system of checka and balances to protect the many from corruption and abuse."
Cults can be large or small, somewhat benign, or dangerously harmful. BUT ... Whatever level of packaging or presentation, or aspect of society a cult operates in, one thing that seems common to all: They lean toward dilution and diminishment of the individual in favor of extolling and promoting the organization or leader(s). One who submits or succumbs to a cult often mortgages his/her conscience and individuality to a group or system in a way that goes beyond normal social behavior or reasonable societal cooperation.
In my way of thinking, the best safeguard against ever again being involved in anything that resembles a 'Cult' is to cherish and promote our own individuality and uniqueness. Never surrender one inch of my mental freedom, my self-identification, my personality, my control and power over my own life. Die for it, if necessary.
I cannot speak for anyone else, nor should I. Each person has their own way and individual method of dealing and coping with what life brings into their path. I have chosen with clear, willful and deliberate reasoning to value individuality and personal power, control, and responsibility over the 'It Takes a Village' mentality.
I believe in some level of social interaction and rules, but only as a modest vehicle and as an mutually agreed contract amongst people who have common interests, such as a city, a state, a nation, a business, and even a religion. The only way I see that this 'social contract' can be safely operated is through a system of checks and balances, of which, the Watch Tower Society has none. - AMAZING
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What if we put God on trial?
by Amazing inwhat if we put god on trial?
of course god cannot be put on trial by humans, and i doubt that he would submit to any subpoena from a human court.
but, what if we were able to do such a thing?
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What if we put God on trial?
Of course God cannot be put on trial by humans, and I doubt that he would submit to any subpoena from a human court. But, what if we were able to do such a thing? What should he be charged with, if anything?
If my child were sick, and I did not get that child to a doctor, I could be charged with neglect. In fact, in many states, if you see someone you don't know who is injured, you are required to assist, or face charges of homicide.
If my child is in trouble because of doing wrong, I must discipline them properly. In some states parents can now be held liable for the conduct of their children.
If someone is trying to harm my child, and I fail to protect as a loving parent would, then again I can face legal problems of neglect.
If I leave my child in a car while running into the grocery store, or leave my child to fend for themselves at home for days or weeks at a time while I travel about, I can be charged with abandonment.
We are taught that humans are children of God, and that God is by definition --- love. We face a hostile world where sickness, disease, war, crime, and ignorance all too often prevail. Where is God? Where is the parent of the human race? Who has the power in his hands to effectively deal with our ills? Why does it seem like God is out of town doing his thing while we are left to fend for ourselves?
Some may argue that we cannot judge God by human standards. I disagree for a fundamental reason ... the Bible says we are made in his image and likeness ... feature understood by most all theologians even the JW leaders as having God's attributes of love, justice, wisdom, and power. The WTS often has cited the human conscience as being fairly universal when it comes to discerning right and wrong because God built within us this basic sense of moral judgment.
Should God be put on trial? What do you think? - Simply Amazing
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Baptism Into the Organization
by AlanF intoday's remarks about the wts's 1985 baptismal vows reminded me of.
an incident an elder recently told me about.
seems a man was still.
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Hi AF: Yep, well said, "Given these facts, it becomes obvious that the Watchtower Society does not view baptism as a dedication to God, but as a ceremony where a proselyte joins himself to the Watchtower organization ... Anyone who retains any notion that Jehovah's Witnesses have anything to do with "Jehovah" is fooling himself."
I have to admit that this is the first time I have ever heard of the Society 'annulling' a baptism. But, if they are willing to 'annull' for some bigamist, then why not 'annull' for any who simply desire to leave peacefully, or those baptized as minors.
When I was an Elder, if this situation would have come up, we would have dealt with the man the same as with a normal baptized JW ... and we would have given him some time to clear up the mess as a show of his repentance. If he did not clear it up, such as divorcing the second wife and moving back with the first wife (or something that would have at least ended the duplicity of marriages), we would have simply disfellowshiped him.
Although, it is a rare enough case, I can see where we might have consulted with the Circuit Overseer. And, depending on who he might be at the time would have determined what course of action. I have no doubt that a CO would call the Society for direction, and hence, we may have experienced an 'annullment' too.
Thanks for sharing that information. - Simply Amazing
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Are JW women repressed in the org?
by Tina inin another thread titled why?
in the beliefs and practices forum,.
i have an exchange going on with another woman.
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Amazing
Yes, JW women are repressed. As noted in the above posts, women have limited opportunity in the organization, unless men are not available, then they can run a congregation ... but the WTS will not allow that to exist for long in most cases, unless it is located near the north pole.
Also, JW women are mostly repressed sexually with guilt and fear of being lustful when they have normal sexual desires. The WTS has really harmed JW women in this respect. When I served as an Elder, I recall JW women saying that they hated sex, and wish their husbands would not want it, or get it over with quickly. On the contrary, I have learned that so-called 'worldly' women, even Christian women, seem to enjoy sex more normally. - Amazing
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Did you/Do you actually LIKE Field Service?
by LovesDubs ingod i hated it..every living breathing minute of it.
it was pure hell for me, and based on the pace i see the jws all over the world moving, they aint so fond of it neither.
the persecution that the jws feel they get is from irritated householders who know nothing about their religion except that they hit people over the head with it and then judge them because they dont like being hit over the head with it.
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Hi Esmerelda: Yes, I enjoyed Field Service initially because I truly believed that I was helping to save people before Armageddon in 1975. I did not like it enough to do it just for the heck of it ... but with a worthy goal of helping people, I did not mind it that much. I suspect that it is because I enjoyed a measure of success at it. But, as I said above, as the years wore on and it became obvious that Armageddon was not 'around the corner' and it became necessary to 'cut corners.' Then, when I realized that the 'truth' was not the 'truth', then representing JW beliefs from door to door became impossible.
Since I left engineering, I work in real estate sales, and engage in phone calls and mailings. We have training and educational programs on how to overcome objections too! I ignore it and do my own thing in commercial real estate. The difference in real estate is that my approach to people is brief, to the point, and not meant to convince them of anything. Overcoming objections is only to facilitate them making a decision to sell or buy. Once the decision is made, then I am either helping them or moving on to another client.
Whereas, JWs used to spend a great deal of training time to 'convert' people, or change their thinking and feelings aboutr something. In recent years I notice that they have trimmed down their message and do not seek to engage people as much ... judging from the JWs that have come to my door recently.
What I hated about FS waas the not-at-homes. I would rather have people pissed and slam doors or be nice and listen, then to knock on door after door with no results. That was boring and I hated that of any part of FS.
But, if the WTS had made FS purely voluntary, I am sure my participation would have been reduced, as most JWs, to about 0. The reason for me would not be so much out of dislike for the FS, but because it is a very ineffective method to reach people. I do not blame most JWs for disliking or even hating FS, because it is not natural for most people to engage in selling. Selling is an art, skill, and talent that not all are gifted with. That is why I believe that the Apostle Paul was making the same point in saying that not all in the congregations were evangelizers. Some served other functions as God used them in the body of Christ. Not all are 'eyes' or 'feet' or 'hand' or 'heads' in the body ... likewise not all should be out teaching or preaching. The WTS simply misses this point and instead uses guilt and emotional strong-arm tactics to get the JWs to go out in FS. - Simply Amazing
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Did you/Do you actually LIKE Field Service?
by LovesDubs ingod i hated it..every living breathing minute of it.
it was pure hell for me, and based on the pace i see the jws all over the world moving, they aint so fond of it neither.
the persecution that the jws feel they get is from irritated householders who know nothing about their religion except that they hit people over the head with it and then judge them because they dont like being hit over the head with it.
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I was very nervous at first because I was rather shy at age 19. But, as I got used to it, and became a little better at talking at the doors, I started to enjoy it some ... meeting people, having some fun and interesting experiences. Like a lot of JWs I learned very quickly to do 'unconscious' things to make 'Service' more enjoyable, such as working with people I liked, coffee and donut time at 11AM, and return visits and Bible Studies. IN my 25 years as a JW, I helped 15 people to become JWs, and I averaged about 20 to 30 hours a month when I was not AUX Pioneering.
I think that what made me enjoy Service in the beginning was the belief that Armageddon was so close (pre-1975 days) and that I was sharing in the final gathering of those who would survive into the New System. I enjoyed sharing experiences because it made me part of the JW group. And, I eventually learned that regular and productive service resulted in being promoted to MS and then Elder. It was very validating.
In time, as the years wore on, I found myself cutting corners and not finding this JW feature as exciting. IN the Pre-1975 days in California there was almost a euphoria among the JWs. In Oregon and Washington States I found there was more of a dull attitude about Service and this affected me. Although the Society kept up the 'Urgency' theme, it had less meaning then it did before 1975.
By cutting corners, I mean 'rounding off' time, and starting time from the Kingdom Hall instead of at the first door, and leaving about 20 back issues of the magazines at laundromats to bring up my count, and stretching my time with Bible Studies to increase my hours. Also, I became less intense at the doors, that is, I did not feel the need to try and 'reason' with people as much. I learned to work more rural territory (under the guise that it is not worked as often) but this allowed driving time between doors, and generally more friendly householders. So, I did my part, and was not a 'slacker' but I found ways to count time and work where it was more fun.
When I arrived at the realization that Jehovah's Witnesses and its Watch Tower organization were not what they claimed, then going door to door was not possible. I counted time by family study and one remaining Bible Study. I trimmed down door to door real fast. Funny the other Elders never really noticed. The reason I cut time at new doors was that I did not feel good about what I was presenting. I found a creative way to bring my last Bible Study to a conclusion (he is now out of the organization too, and we are still friends), and I used family study time to help my wife and children reason and come to their own conclusion ... they to left the organization.
I never found Field Service awful. But, it was not my most favorite thing to do. And after 1975 its meaning dimminished. I will post some fun experiences in the near future. - Simply Amazing
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The Ransome Issue
by Amazing infrom a very young age i have been curious about the ransom jesus provided.
i always wondered why god found it necessary to have his son killed for our sins or our inherited sin, when he simply could have just waved his hand and forgiven us.
my catholic faith helped me some to understand the 'financial' exchange aspect of the ransom, but it was never truly satisfying to my sensibilities.. upon becoming a jw, i felt that they had better ideas and definitions.
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From a very young age I have been curious about the Ransom Jesus provided. I always wondered why God found it necessary to have his son killed for our sins or our inherited sin, when he simply could have just waved his hand and forgiven us. My Catholic faith helped me some to understand the 'financial' exchange aspect of the Ransom, but it was never truly satisfying to my sensibilities.
Upon becoming a JW, I felt that they had better ideas and definitions. The 'legalistic' aspect they promulgated greatly helped me see how God would need to follow his own standards, and require the death penalty for sin. And since we are all sinners, thus deserving of death, we need the Ransom. But, even this still does not make sense. When we die the Bible says we are acquitted of our sin because of death ... which we all pay ... so, if we have paid for our own sin, then why not apply mercy and simply resurrect us after the fact? Why involve Jesus?
After I left the JWs, I continued my general acceptance of all this, but expanded my faith to include a number of things that add value to the Ransom, and why it is needed. But, I am still troubled by the whole thing.
Essentially, we are forced into sin because we are products of sinners all the way back to Adam and Eve. We did not choose in any way to sin, or become sinners. We are that way because of two things:
1) God's design to 'booby-trap' Adam and Eve so that they pass along sin and death because of their sin. A design that could have easily changed, as he did in the case of Jesus who was born of Mary (a sinner). Jesus was born sinless and remained so. Why could God not have done as much for us?
2) God's standards of death as payment for sin. A standard that he has the authority to set or not to set, to change or not to change, to apply rigidly, or not to apply, but waive. Who can argue with God if he decides to let his standard ride or not enforce it or simply change the law?
I had absolutely nothing to do with the sin inherited from Adam and Eve. I had no choice, no ability to be involved, because I was not alive to do anything one way or the other. Therefore, I submit, that if I am forced into sin by circumstances beyond my control, then the responsibility is not mine, but the one who has the power and authority to deal with it, namely God.
I am trying to sort out all this, because it seems that the Ransom, if it is truly God's rigid "legal" of "financial" standard that he refuses to deviate from, then it cannot be an act of generosity or "undeserved kindness," but rather, a moral responsibility on his part to deal with his design and all the poor, ignorant, sinful and imperfect people who are born not having a clue as to any universal issue; nor having any power or authority to do anything one way
or the other about it.I am still not satisfied with this core Christian teaching, not because I lack faith in Jesus, but because I simply cannot understand the issue or the accountability held over our heads for sins we cannot help but commit; sins that we inherited from ancient people that we have no control over.
Here is another way to state the problem: My child disobeys my directions, and gets arrested for drunk driving. While held in prison, he gets married and has many children who are also held in prison. I built the prison, own the town, set the laws, and pay
the prison guards. Nonetheless, I wait until drunk child dies in 40 years, and then send my oldest son to die to pay the bail bonds and dismiss the case ... with one stipulation ... my grandchildren in jail must now place "faith" in and be adopted by my oldest son (their uncle) who died for them. Failure to do so will result in continued imprisonment and eventual death.However, even after my grandchildren put faith in my oldest son, I allow other evil criminals (similar to the devil concept) to also go into the prison and teach confusion and rape and torture my grandchildren, their children, and their children's children for decades of years. Also, they continue in prison even after putting
faith in my oldest son and they die there ... but are told that someday they will get brought back to life to live the good life with me on the farm.Would I seem psychotic to you if I did that to my children and grandchildren? Then, why is this somehow an act of love and mercy for God, who makes all the rules, has all the power, to take essentially the same approach, not just to a few children ... but billions of people over thousands of years? Is there anything wrong with the picture? Does anyone have any good
explanations? - Simply Amazing -
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Mother-In-Law 2
by silentlambs inwell here it is folks the response to my wife's letter.
i guess i have become more evil between letters.
once again any ideas as to how to answer this type of logic?
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Amazing
Hi SilentLambs: Here is the gist of how I might respond:
”Jehovah works through his organization, changing things from within not through worldly media and people who are bringing reproach on him and his people.”
False: Even WTS publications recognize that Jehovah worked through ‘worldly’ kings, such as Nebuchadnezzar, to discipline his people. God is not ‘partial’ or a ‘respecter of persons’, but is free to use whom he wishes to accomplishes his will. The WTS also admits that in modern times it was disciplined when JF Rutherford and others were sent to prison because of their uncleanness. Finally, Catholic Priest have argued for many decades that Catholics must wait on Christ to ‘clean out’ the church. Obviously that logic never flies with Jehovah’s Witnesses. There is a time and place when one must wake up to truth, when reality catches up to fantasy.
”Talk about an ostrich with its head in the sand. You are following an imperfect rebellious man, not Jesus Christ our leader and exempler.”
False. It is because of Jesus Christ that we have to admit the truth and as did the apostle Paul, appeal to Caesar to address the wicked conduct being allowed to persist for decades within the Watch Tower organization.
”You’ve chosen to focus on one issue and disregard the most important issue, the sanctifying and vindication of Jehovah’s name and getting the good news preached before the end.”
False. This “ISSUE” caused by wicked Watchtower policy is what is bringing reproach on Jehovah’s and Jesus’ names. We are still preaching the Good News.
”I’ve mentioned this more than once and when you answer you always ignore it. Ya’ll are actively influencing others to turn against Jehovah’s Organization causing some to lose faith like the sisters husband I told you about in my last letter.”
False. We are NOT influencing anyone to turn against Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, nor by any means to lose faith in the same. We are trying to get people to wake up to the truth of a wicked situation, and realize that the ‘organization’ is a mere human convenience, as often stated in so many words by the WTS.
”His blood will be on silentlambs head.”
The molested children of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their parents who are kept in silence by Watch Tower policy are on the heads of the leadership, and not our conscience.
”What do you call people who cause others to doubt and turn away form Jehovah and his organization?”?
If the organization is proving false, as have others like the Catholic Church, then I call people who help others get out, to be liberators.
“You cannot stop all children from being abused just as no one can stop incest, physical abuse, etc… It happens outside and in Jehovah’s Organization from those not truly applying his standards. Jehovah will judge them and bring them to justice.”
No one is saying that such crimes can be stopped. But, the only way crimes are dealt with are when the victims and their parents speak out, and seek justice. When the organization turns their backs on them, then they have to appeal to the civil authorities. Caesar is not asking something against God by seeking such information, but as Jesus said, ‘Render therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, and God’s things to God.’ What Caesar is seeking here is something that does NOT violate God’s laws, but actually supports the will of Jehovah.
“In the mean time family can turn abusers or those highly suspected in. I know of cases where that was done and the ones who turned the individuals in were not disciplined by the congregation.”
Families are instructed to keep silent. And as a result of obeying such religious men, the authorities never find out.
“How sad that you choose to spend the remaining time in this system working against Jehovah’s Organization. Somewhere along the line under your husbands very subtle but persuasive influence you have lost the immensely good sense and wonderful discernment you had and are like a horse with blinders on that can only see in one direction.”
The system has been in its ‘remaining time’ for over 100 years. What else is new? What I am doing is not working against the organization, but for the victims of molestation that the organization has turned its back on. It is precisely because my ‘blinders’ are off that I am able to discern this issue and move forward.
“Don’t bother trying to reason with me and I won’t try with you anymore. My faith is stronger than ever.”
You do not want to be reasoned with because you are afraid of admitting the truth. You cannot see wicked criminal policy even as it stares you in the face ... you are blinded by a concept, a fantasy, and one day reality will catch up to such a fantasy.
“Part of the prophecy was how there would be those who would turn away from the truth.”
The WTS policies about treating molesters seems to fulfill that prophecy about those turning away from truth.
“We’re supposed to meet together and all the more so as we behold the day drawing near. That is scriptural and you know it. Your dad and sister have told me they do not agree with ya’ll and don’t want to talk to you about it. It’s pretty sad when DF persons can see how wrong your course is, but you can’t.”
We have not stopped meeting together. I find it interesting that you take the word of DF’d people over ours. What does that say about you?
“One isolating himself will seek his own selfish longing, in this case-do or die on one issue.
Thanks silentlambs, I’ve lost not only a daughter but one whom I considered my closest friend. When I say lost I mean having the very close relationship we had. I will never approve of what you are doing.”We are not seeking to isolate ourselves, but just the opposite, we are opening up to the light of truth to all. You have not lost me or our relationship. If anything is lost, or abandoned, it is only your choice, not mine.
Mom, I love you, and wish you would try to understand, and see the other side of this issue. Why close your mind and heart? Are we really working against God, or rather, men who see themselves above God; men who conceal wicked crimes against helpless children?
The above is how I might respond if it were my mother who wrote that letter to me. It may not work or be appropriate for this situation for SilentLambs wife, but maybe it might provide some ideas. - Amazing
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Where do they sit in your hall?
by ns7 inwhat i find bemusing is, if there are any disfellowshipped ones in your hall they have to sit at the back.
now without getting into the merits/rights/wrongs of whether this should be still acceptable, where do they sit in your hall?
you see i seem to remember that they would sit on the back row, come in quietly just after the song and prayer and leave at the end just as quick.
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Hi Ns7:
Typically, they sat in the last row. On a night where the hall was full, the attendants would add some extra chairs, ostensibly for visitors, but this often included disfellowshiped persons.
You said, "... come in quietly just after the song and prayer and leave at the end just as quick."
Generally this was true in our hall, but, at times the DF'd persons would come in just before the meeting started, so they could be sure to get a back row seat. They would sit quietly and read so as to avoid 'eye' contact.
When we took attendance count, I recall being instructed not to count DF'd persons because they technically are 'dead' in Jehovah's eyes, and not really present in the same sense as those in 'good standing.' It all seems so silly now, like a little kids clubhouse mentality.
You said, "Even if they have family they can’t seem to sit discreetly at the back."
True. When a dad is DF's he will commonly sit with his family. But, they still tend to sit near the back together.
You asked, "Where did this stupid rule come in?"
I don't know. I imagine that it may have started shortly after DFing became a JW practice. People who are still believers in the religion, but DF'd, may feel embarassed, and want to stay in the back to avoid being gawked at. At the same time, Elders look for humility as one of the conditions of reinstatement. So, if a DF'd person parades up to the front, this may not play well in the Elders minds.
However, when I think of those whom Jesus praised, I think of the Pharisee and the Tax collector. The Pharisee was in good standing, wnet to the front of the Synagog to pray out loud. The Tax collector stayed in the back and humbly prayed quietly.
I think the Watch Tower has truly done a fine job of showing us who the Pharisees are ... not the DF'd persons, but the smug leaders and their minions.
Simply Amazing