I agree with you Farkel. The Patterson, the first time I have seen it, is ghastly. The look-out tower in the back middle with the windows, reminds me of Waco, Texas Branch Davidian compound.
Amazing
Amazing
JoinedPosts by Amazing
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"Patterson" Pictures
by ZazuWitts insince registering with this forum, i have heard many mention the patterson complex.
having been 'out' since pre-1975, this facility was news to me.
came across this link, and thought i would share it with other.
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JUSTICE #6 - Stumbling the Least of These
by Amazing inwoe to those who stumble the least of these .
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone" .
[note: this is a sickening story, and goes to the heart of why many youth among jws end up leaving their religion.
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Amazing
WOE TO THOSE WHO STUMBLE THE LEAST OF THESE
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
[Note: This is a sickening story, and goes to the heart of why many youth among JWs end up leaving their religion. The long term harm is not possible to measure. Finally, it shows how seriously flawed the Watch Tower teachings and policies are with respect to parenting, and how they override the normal and healthful actions of everyday good parents.]
I received a call from a close friend. He told me that his 14 year old son was facing a Judicial Committee. He called because the Elders also wanted to talk to me as part of their investigation. Why?
The brother's other younger son and my youngest son, ages 5 and 6 had been counseled by the brother and myself because they had engaged in some wrong suggestions. They had actually done nothing because we stopped them before anything happened. The event had taken place a few months earlier, and we as parents felt that our counseling of the boys and a period of separation was adequate to deal with it.
The next evening I approached one of the Elders about this and wanted to know what their concern was. Since I was serving as an Elder, they were quite open with me.
It seems the 14 year old boy had been caught engaged in an act that is common to boys his age. He was also in the company of another unbaptized boy. The unbaptized fellow was also being raised as a JW. They were not doing anything with each other, but let's say they were gazing at the some forbidden literature that contains pictures young boys entering puberty would find fascinating. Let's also say that these pictures were enabling them to fantasize while they stimulated themselves.
The Elders were concerned because the 5 year old younger brother had suggested to my son, while staying the night, that they try this particular self-induced stimulation. My youngest son did not know what he was talking about. Nevertheless the Elders felt that I and the other brother should have brought our 5 and 6 year old sons to them rather than counseling them ourselves.
I disagreed because the matter was not serious. Nothing really happened. And such young boys, not being baptized, surely only needed the counsel of their dads. [I was always a little bit of a Maverick in this respect.]
The Elders took a different view. They felt that because two sons in the same family, the 14 year old and the 5 year old exhibited the same tendency toward things of a sexual nature, and because they also learned that the oldest son, about 19 years old at the time, had also engaged in the same type of self stimulation sometime earlier, that the whole family had a problem. [A bunch of masturbaters!] They were also concerned because now one of their sons (the 5 years old) was now trying to spread his thinking to my son. They saw this family as having a bad influence.
The Elders felt that ‘had they known about the situation of our youngest sons’ they may have been able to prevent the 14 year old son from engaging in self-stimulation. [Choke, cough, errr -not] As it was, he was seen in serious trouble, not just because of self-stimulation, and use of fascinating photographs, but the other boy his age was also influenced to try the same thing.
The Elders dropped the matter with my son, but with the strong warning that in the future if I learn of boys who have been stimulating themselves, then the congregation should know about it. (Meaning report it to the Elders to determine if congregation action is needed [in cases of masturbation?]).
When the 14 year old boy faced the committee, he did not show the usual signs of repentance. The Elders he faced were each at least 3 times the boy's age, all in their mid-40s. They could not get him to admit that what he did was all that serious, and he did not display the type of emotional reaction that would show he was truly sorry[as might an adult]. He agreed that he sinned, but he could not assure the Elders that he would NEVER stimulate himself ever again.
He was scared. He did not understand that the Elders were simply looking for a commitment that he be resolved to avoid this self-stimulation conduct again. He thought they meant that he guarantee that he never again do this for his entire life. He felt that such a promise might not always be kept.
It was Tuesday night and the congregation was gathering in as the TM School was about to start. The chairman of the Judicial Committee came up to me and asked to talk in the back room. He asked if I could make an announcement at the start of the Service Meeting. I agreed and he handed me a letter.
I read it, and saw that it was a signed letter by the Judicial Committee notifying the congregation that the 14 year old boy is now disfellowshipped. I asked why they wanted me to read it since I was not actually on that committee. He said the Elders who were on the committee felt ill about the decision they had to make, and did not want to read the letter.
I inquired if they uncovered other conduct besides self-stimulation, that warranted disfellowshipping. They said no, but that the boy's lack of comprehension of his act led to the decision. I did not have to ask because I already knew from talking with the dad, but I wanted to hear the Elder confirm it. I went ahead and read the announcement. The 14 year boy had just been baptized 5 months earlier. He was putting in Pioneer hours waiting to be appointed to Regular Pioneer.
He and his parents met with the Elders two or three times each year after this, for a couple of years. The boy went to all the meetings with his parents. He avoided all 'worldly’ friends to show he was ‘no part of the world.’ He accepted being shunned by his JW friends to show his repentance [in other words, no friends at all for a young teenager!!!]. He studied the Watchtower magazine and prepared for book study. He sat in quietly on the family study.
Each subsequent meeting with the Elders was the same. They just did not see where the boy fully understood his wrong conduct. They felt he needed more time. A few months would go by and they would meet again. Each time the Elders were not convinced just yet. He needed just a little more time.
Eventually, 7 years elapsed. The boy went without friends, and had kept up the same effort to be reinstated. He finally gave up trying. At age 21 he not only lost faith in the Watch Tower religion, but also lost faith in God and abandoned his family. He got married to a non-JW girl. His parents were crushed that they lost their son to the "world." They briefly went through a period of questioning the Elders, but decided to stick by Jehovah's organization, even though they could not understand themselves what the Elders were looking for.
Three boys in a family all being aware of or engaging in self-stimulation was too much for the Elders. They felt that this was a serious trend in one family and surely indicated some serious spiritual flaw.
The Watchtower magazine warned about this conduct as far back as 1973 and before. They warned of the serious dangers and now see this young boy had become another casualty in the war against masturbation. [later on, on H20, Farkel posted a most humorous copy of that article accompanied by his sparkling comments. LOL It is a must read for any of you who have come to understand the sexual frustrations JWs go through.]Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.!
Supplemental comments not in the first post to H20: Since I first wrote this article, the younger brother of this boy, the one who had some sex talk with my son, also left the organization. He called my sons recently and said that he was out of the JWs. His older sister also left the organization. The oldest son left his wife and married another JW girl. He is still a JW.
Because near the end of my association with the JWs, I loudly protested this issue, especially with the parents, they became very appreciative of me. And this strengthened our friendship. They were among the good friends who stuck by us after we walked away from the organization. Eventually, however, they chose to shun me a few months after it was announced that I was DA’d. On occasion, they will call my oldest daughter to see how things are. But I no longer hear from them, nor do they ever send any greeting. A few others send greetings anyway.
Summary The sadness in this story is how a young man went 7 years without friends. How Elders expected the impossible of him, such that he lost faith. This harm to his normal socialization and adjustment during youth will likely follow him the rest of his life. If I get a chance, I will give him my apology for even reading his DF letter. I hope that he has adjusted well for his sake. – Amazing
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JUSTICE #5 - Comfort the Depressed - Not!
by Amazing inelders: comfort the depressed souls not .
sister hurting was going through some difficult times, both physically and emotionally.
she sought professional medical help.
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Amazing
ELDERS: COMFORT THE DEPRESSED SOULS – NOT
Sister Hurting was going through some difficult times, both physically and emotionally. She sought professional medical help. One of her prescribed medications was to help her with depression.
She is a good person, strong personality, but hard worker and caring for her family. She has a wonderful sense of humor and a joy to be around. She and her JW husband were personal friends of my wife and I. We enjoyed many good times with them in years past.
One evening, after taking a couple of aspirin, she developed some serious physical complications. It was serious enough to visit the emergency room at the hospital. Upon arriving and examination, the emergency room doctor admitted her for further tests and observation. She was placed in the intensive care unit. Visitations were restricted to her husband or other significant persons, such as her doctor, lawyer, or Minister. [Yes, you guessed it.]
The next day, Elder Q heard about her hospitalization, and drove to the hospital for a visit. Upon entering, he advised the nursing staff that he was Sister Hurting's Minister. They permitted him to see her. Sister Hurting did not want to see Elder Q, but allowed this because he was already in the room.
Elder Q was very concerned for Sister Hurting because she had not been regular at meetings in a few months, and he felt that she had serious problems. He asked her if she had overdosed on drugs. She said no. He asked what drugs she was taking. She said none other than aspirin the night before and her prescription for depression. He asked what drug that was and she told him.
He immediately advised her to demand that her doctor take her off of the drug because it was a "demon" drug. He cited a Society article which ran a full cover story on the drug. (I have not read that article in so long that I have forgotten what it said or how he got that impression.)
Sister Hurting felt that since her doctor prescribed the drug that it must be safe. Elder Q disagreed and told her that she needed to stop using it immediately. Further, he told her that he felt she was secretly abusing drugs, and that was why she was spiritually weak. She said that she was not abusing drugs. She said that she followed the prescription dosage and the only other drug taken was two aspirin. Elder Q said that was not possible and she needed to come clean with this matter.
During this visit, Sister Hurting's doctor arrived for his rounds and stopped by to see her. Elder Q pulled the doctor out into the hallway and advised the doctor that she was abusing drugs and needed to be closely watched. He stated his status as her Minister.
Sister Hurting's doctor talked with her about this and she strongly denied using drugs. She stated that she was only following the prescription dosage. Her doctor, not sure what to make of this, requested a drug screen and took urine and blood samples for examination. The results showed that she had no drugs in her system other than the proper therapeutic levels of her prescription anti-depressant.
During this time Brother Hurting was present and simply watched. He did not stand up for his wife nor did he ask Elder Q to stop the harassment. Why? His wife wanted to know why he just let all this happen. Brother hurting said he felt obligated not to challenge the Elders. He just slunk into the background and would not take a stand.
Eventually, Sister Hurting was released from the hospital. Sometime after this it was determined that she has a rare condition that was causing her to convulse and have serious life-threatening problems. She has since been treated, and seems to be doing fine.
She was crushed over this because Elder Q never showed any concern for her personally, nor did he respect her decision to work with her doctor and receive treatment as she deemed best.
Is Elder Q liable for practicing medicine without a license or guilty of interference with medical treatment? I believe that this is an issue which an attorney and/or medical professional must answer.
My concern here is not so much with Elder Q's interference with her treatment, but his blatant insistence she was abusing drugs, and his lack of providing what the Bible says Elders should do ... comfort the depressed souls.
By the way, Elder Q is known to have excellent health and never sick a day in his life. He feels that depressed people are just making excuses for being weak, lazy, and good for nothing.
[Note: Sister Hurting has since left the Watch Tower religion, and divorced her husband. The last time I talked with her, she has no interest in God or religion anymore. She went back to school and earned a degree, became successfully employed. She still suffers from depression, but is coping much better now. She got the house and custody of her daughter. She is a fighter, and stood up for herself.] – Amazing
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JUSTICE #3 - Sin worse than Apostasy!
by Amazing ina sin worse than apostasy .
there was a very nice young couple in our congregation with one child.
no one could see why she should not be reinstated.
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Amazing
Hello Had Enough:
You noted, "I can't understand why the ones in Bethel, who get the letters from the elders explaining each case and reasons for their decision, couldn't see the injustice in this and suggest another decision be made."
In this case, I do not believe that the Society was notified of the note 'not to be reinstated'. That note was on the envelop. But, I feel that even if the Society would have been notified, they likely would not have said much about it, unless the sister or her attorney protested.
You mentioned that this seemed like one of the worst cases you've read so far. Some of the next cases in the Justice series are even worse, I am sad to say. - Amazing
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McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing ini am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.
i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.
and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.
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Amazing
Hi Wendy: I appreciate your comments. I want to add some additional perspective on this:
You said, "So then we go to what Amazing brought out, McVeigh did admit to this. Ok so now what? He is injected with a medicine and dies in 2-10 minutes. He never has to think about what he did again(as far as we know)."
And, sitting and thinking about what he did for the next 40 years in a jail cell will accomplish nothing either. he will not be giving talks, and warning youth to avoid his thinking patterns. Rather after 40 years, he will die and his thoughts with him. In jail, there is no life ... just day to day existence hoping you will not be beat up, raped, or have your food taken.
You continued, "The families of the lost ones, now will be satisfied in their hearts, that the man is dead? Rejoicing that "justice" was served."
No one I know of will rejoice that this man is executed. I would rather he had not committed the crime. I would rather that the mangled bodies of women and babies were alive and whole again. Where is the justice in his being able to wipe these innocent people out and then sit in a jail cell? Prison hardens people a vast majority of the time. They do not normally develop repentance. And even if they do repent, they have no life, no hope, and no prospect of benefiting from any act of repentance.
You continued, "That seems so inhuman, well, maybe I should say human. I for one can honestly say, I will never rejoice when I see a human die. There is a loss for someone, somewhere when this happens. I could go on and on, but I won't"
I see nothing inhuman about justice, where it is properly applied. I do not advocate the death penalty as a normal use of justice, but only in clear cases where guilt is 100% certain and the crime is of a level that there can be no other way to satisfy justice.
According to many Christians, God himself was willing to kill Adam & Eve over a piece of fruit, and also condemn billions of humans to suffering and death. So, I think the human system of justice in the limited cases of people like McVeigh is far more compassionate and felxible than condemning an entire race over a piece of silly fruit.
I do not see this as an 'eye-for-eye' as you suggested above. Otherwise McVeigh would have to be blown to bits by a bomb 168 times. The justice here is not about like-for-like, but about a man who wantonly murdered innocent babies, children, women, men, fathers, mothers, wives, husbands, brothers and sisters. He forfeited his life or any claim thereto.
I will feel sad and ill when they execute him, even with the compassionate lethal injection. It is at this moment I hope his thoughts focus on his terrible crime, and that his regret if full, and let God do the final act of forgiveness.
Amazing
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McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing ini am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.
i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.
and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.
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Amazing
Hi Tina:
You said, "I will disagree with your opinion. And that's all it is."
I accept that.
You continued, "And I do KNOW. I really didnt think that line was necessary."
I am not sure what you are referring to.
You continued, "What makes you know better than anyone else? You may state it more eloqquently but its still just an opinion, just as mine is."
I never said that I know better than anyone else. I state my view, and noted it as much. I feel strongly about my view, and I am not ashamed of my view. Could I be worng? Yes. And in stating my view, I also have the same right to disagree with others, and debate their view, as that have the right to debate my view. But, I do not place myself above others in doing this. Maybe it is possible that motives and intent were attributed to my post that are not there. This is a problem with the written word without the benefit of mannerisms, facial expressions, and tone of voice.
Sorry if you feel that I was speaking with any arrogance or a sense of superiority. I speak what I believe and view, but I have no arrogance or superiority. I respect the views of others, including and especially those I disagree with. I do not always enjoy 'preaching to the choir. I welcome healthy debate, and I debate to my best. But I respect others.
The difference here is that we can have such debates and disagreements, and not wipe each other out as what took place in the WTS. I apologize if I offended you or anyone, as this was not my intent. Hope that we can move forward from here. - Amazing
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McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing ini am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.
i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.
and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.
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Amazing
Hi Crossroads: I want to separately address your comments from above.
You said, "Amazing what gave our government the right to cleanse the west of the AMERICAN INDIANS didn't WE (our
forfathers) do this without NO rettrobution."First, my post was about Mcveigh, and not American history and its treatment of native indians. But, I agree with you on this. Our ancestors were wrong to treat the native indians the way they did. But, if you read history, you will find that it was NOT a one-sided affair where a bunch of mean white guys came over and butchered peace loving kind gentle indians. The issue was far more complex, and many idnian tribes were warriors, who would make alliances with the white settlers so they could buy guns and kill tribes they didn't like.
The white man prevailed because we out-manned and out-gunned the Indians. But it took from 1492 until about 1892 or 400 years to do this. I am not proud of the serious errors of the my white ancestors, but I am equally not proud of red ancestors who, in many cases, were as guilty of serious wrongs as the whites.
Most of all, the American government and the overwhelming vast majority of white Americans are 100% against what took place, in spite of red man guilt involved.
You continued, "Too bad Bosian's didn't have stealth bombers at the time to help the poor old indians out."
You may forget history here, but there were the French-Indian wars, and similar events where the Idnains were given a lot of help. They were trained in updated warfare, bought guns, and made alliances with other European nations to fight wars. The problem is, they lost. Again, native American Indians were not all peace loving, bead making, gentile little poor spirits. Many were damn butchers who would burn down white settlers homes without warning to move, they would scalp the men, rape the women, and take the children. Were all indians this way? No! Were all white out to gun down Indians? No. It was a complex time in history, and before making solid judgments, one must read a lot of history to get a balanced picture.
The bad treatment of native indians took place more toward the middle to end of the 19th century where they were confined to reservations, and treaties violated by the USA government. This is the clear tradegy, and one that is still a problem. But today, it is not that indians are confined to the reservations, but they refuse to leave and integrate with white society. I can't judge them for this, because I don't fully understand the dynamics. But, they are keeping themselves down now.
You said, "Why not lethaly inject Truman after all how many innocent lives did he wipe out."
If you are speaking of now deceased US President Harry Truman, you are then referring to what? The nuclear bomb droppd on Japan? This is absurd. The Japanese started that war with wanton bombing. Should the USA sit there and say, 'Oh my, we are a peace loving people, and Japan, that was not a nice thing to do. Stop it now!" HELL NO! It was war, and the choices were to either sit back and be killed, or fight back and kill the invaders. As for dropping the bomb, I agree that it was likely not necessary. But, my father who fought in that war in the Pacific, sdaid that the Japanese warriors would never have surrendered so soon, unless the bomb was dropped.
20 years later, in 1965, I recall news reports of Japanese soldiers found in various islands in and aorund the Phillipians who still thought the war was going on and were in the fighting mode. Japanese were part of a cult religion as well, and that is why they would commit suicide ... komakazies would take off and have their wheel drop off so that they would be sure to die for the empire!
But, what disturbes me about the bombs dropped on Japan was the harm to children and women who were not involved in the war. But then again, what about the innocent Americans killed at Pearl Harbor when Japan wickedly bombed the hell out of the place, wiped out the US 7th Fleet?
You continued, "The war was over we would have NEVER had to invade.
It was all political so Stallin would see the mighty fire crackers we had and would be in fear. Nothing at all to do with the innocent Japaneese killed. HMMMMMM"While I agree that dropping the nuclear bombs was not good, I know of no evidence that supports your theory to impress Joe Stalin. The Japanese were fighting to the bitter end, and Truman made a judgment call. It may not have been the best call. But, recall that Truman, during the Korean War, fired Gen McArther because he wanted to contain and end the War, whereas Douglas McArther wanted to invade China and keep going. Truman knew that this war business havd to stop. Enough was enough. So, his judgment to use the nuke bomb on Japan was to bring a swift end to the War, and it worked.
It is easy for us here 56 years later to see that the bomb was not the best judgment. But, I cannot place myself in his shoes and say what I would do differently.
You said, "I guess it all depends on what side of the fence your
and if you are in power or not."To some extent. Might does not make right. But might is good to have for those who are right. But the worst thing we can do to ourselves is to rewrite history, and swallow the swill of those who try to make the USA out to be some kind of western version of the Nazis. The USA is far from perfect, but it is still a good nation, made of mostly good people, who try to do good and be friends. Sometimes, the USA stumbles over itself, and sometimes it makes stupid judgments, and sometimes the USA is arrogantly wrong, or at least that is how others perceive us. But we are still a good nation trying to move in the right direction.
YTou said, "I agree with Tina all killing is bad, seems like thats
the reason I'm having so much trouble with the God of the Old Testament."Killing and murder is bad. I agree. Justice is NOT bad. Ending Mr. McVeigh's life is about JUSTICE and not about killing or murder. That son of a bitch killed woman, babies, fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, all in the name of his psychotic ideas. he showed no regard for the lives of these innocent people. He is a brutal murderer. Putting him out of existence is the right thing to do. 168 women, men, and children were killed, and many others injured for life. This is NOT about revenge, it is about JUSTICE!
I do not want Mr. McVeigh treated cruely by having some lug in prison raping him, by having him beat up day after day by prisoners who feel the need to punish him further. I do not believe that his life in prison will do anyone any good. Let the man die peacefully, and move on. Good riddance to him. - Amazing
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McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing ini am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.
i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.
and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.
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Amazing
For JanH and others, I will try to make my points a little more clear.
1. The death penalty is NOT about deterance, revenge, or killing innocent people. The death penalty is about one thing, and one thing only: JUSTICE
I DO believe that IF there is any doubt about guilt, then it should be held off until absolute 100% proof can be obtained. In McVeigh's case, he PROUDLY admitted guilt. Those who support life in prison as somehow makeing us more civilized have absolutely no damn idea what they are talking about.PRISON is about the most cruel thing you can to another human being. PRISON life is hell and is most UNcivilized, hardens people, and is no deterance to crime IF that is what Amnesty people are looking for. PRISON makes bad people even worse..
WHAT we need is a major reform of how we treat criminals, what really constitutes CRIME, how to truly REHABILITATE people, and use the death penalty only in those cases where wanton murder was committed, and proof exists to establish guilt.
Compoaring the USA to China, Iran, Iraq is utterly absurd. Those nations kill at the drop of a hat, and for mere political dissidence. The USA goes to great lengths to provide a fair trial, even at public expense, and makes sure that the convicted has plenty of opportunity to appeal. In Illinois, where recent DNA tests shoed that about 1/3 of the Death Row inmates might not be guilty, the Governor suspended the Death Penalty until the system could be improved. The USA is far and above the likes of nations like China, Iraq, etc.
What about Crime rate?: As I noted above, the Death penalty is NOT about deterance. But, why does the USA have a high crime rate? It is the socio-moral values that have broken down in the first place. And, IF you have not noticed, CRIME has been on the decline in the country for about 30 years.
We are also a nation of 280 Million people. There are different dynamics associated with the USA than say a nation with only 10 million where everyone is one race, almost all the same religion, and the life style is not undere so much pressure. The USA is not perfect, but to ban the death penalty will not deter crime, save lives of the victims, or improve the basic values that cause people to live better.
FINALLY The death penalty DOES save lives and many of them. HARD REALITY here for you who oppose the death penalty. EXAMPLE: There are people, such as Ted Bundy, who kill for sport or some sexual kinky excitement. If not caught, they will kill an average of 300 or more victims in their lives. IS not PRISON then good enough to make society safe? NO
Here are a few reasons why: These people escape. They influence people on the outside. They kill in the PRISON system. And eventually they get killed. EXAMPLE: Jeff Dahmer, the child molester, killer, and mutilator of little boys died this way in prison after being tortured. So,
When to anti-death penalty types try to compare this civil act to JWs treatment of apostates, you are straining and strectching, because you do not know or understand in the slightest what you are talking about. I do not question your good motives, but I question how much you really understand hard reality and the facts associated with keeping a person alive in prison.
As for Myterdom of McVeigh. Nope, it ain't goona happen. Americans have better sense than that. Mcveigh needs to go to sleep peacefully and not wake up. Justice will be served. The rest of us can move on. - Amazing
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The Great Watchtower Disappearing Act!
by Tallyman in* http://www.intrex.net/talley/boggess.html .
here is another example of watchtower magick, which makes things go away.. a case almost 10 years old now, where a married jw couple living near charlotte, nc filed charges against elders & the wts.. 8, count'em eight, criminal charges were filed against these defendants.. a jw sister, named ginger boggess was hauled in before a judicial committee because her daughter wanted to join a high school function.. the elders on the committee really musta worked her over, or so she alleged.. the complaint listed:.
1. false imprisonment.
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Amazing
Tally: I hope that th WTS will not buy off the media or in some way scare them off. But in the case you mention, they may have settled out of court. Sure thing like a large financial settlement can make things disappear fast. But, with the media, it would take more money that the WTS has or is willing to part with, to stop a show that will command a lot of revenue in advertising. Just my view, but I think the Society will spend more money and time using spin within the org to keep JWs busy that night ... special meeting so that all must attend and hear some goofy letter read from the Society about the end coming soon --- and JWs will miss the show. next, they wilol spend as much money to have lawyers coach them on how to spin the media investigative reporters ... but, there is a little thing that they are not expecting ... and that is what will catch them by the balls.
Amazing
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Watchtower 'Moles'?
by Outaservice inthe cia, israel's mossad, and many other intelligence gathering organizations, plant 'moles' in various places to keep an eye on whats going on (spying).. do you personally believe the society has planted 'moles' in various places?
do they have people in the media (television, radio, newspapers, and news magazines) do they have infiltrators in ex-jw ministries?
are they in the post offices watching the mail.
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Amazing
Hi Outaservice: You make some interesting points. You asked, "Do you personally believe the Society has planted 'Moles' in various places?"
Yes, without question. I have seen some evidence of that on H20, but not on JWD yet. I have had some other information that also confirms this.
You continued, "Do they have people in the media (television, radio, newspapers, and news magazines)?"
I was not sure until recently. But, I believe that they have some influence there too.
You asked, "Do they have infiltrators in ex-JW ministries?"
I am not sure that they go that far. Monitoring the Internet is about as far as they need to go.
You continued, "Are they in the Post Offices watching the mail."
There may be some isolated cases where individual JWs may work at the USPS and if they saw something, they might let the Elders know. I recall one case where this happened years ago. Sometimes JWs working for medical and law offices have been known to report confidential matters to the Elders ... but I do not believe that the WTS sets this up, but they merely take advantage of it. I believe it was AlanF (correct me if I am wrong) who posted a WTS article encourgaing JWs to report such.
You asked, "Are they controlling some Internet providers?"
I don't if they are controlling any, but in the UK an ex-JW site called Witness aid, or something like that, was shut down for no reason, and it later proven that JWs at the WTS office were responsible for influencing the ISP. I can get the details from the site owner if you wish. He also posted a lot on H20 until it went down suddenly.
You asked, "Are they 'paying off' officials to control things the way they want to have them go?"
I don't think the WTS has any formal system for this, but I have no doubt that where bribes are the norm in some nations, they they will use this to get what they want. I would not be surprised if the WTS has found ways to sweeten the political funds of politicians in the USA where they wanted to get something done ... and that way JWs would never really know. But, on this, I don't have any evidence, just would not be shocked if that happened.
You concluded, "If so, they forgot one thing! They're dealing with a 'living God' and he cannot be outsmarted. They loose!"
I agree. And if the atheists are correct, then the WTS still loses, but not with God but with their own humanity. - Amazing