Hi Lovelylil,
There are so many posts to choose from that I have a hard time knowing where to start. I started with yours just because you raise what leads to the core of the issues.
The church is the "body of believers". It is comprised of those who have been saved and redeemed by the true living God based upon the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus upon the cross. Another term for body of believers is "body of Christ" . So all those "in Christ" make up the church. Inclusion into the body of Christ or the true Church is not by membership in ANY denomination. It is not recieved by any rituals or by ceremony, or by natural birth. It is recieved by faith (Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:8). The invisible Church is the church made up of all true believers who have been born again by the spirit of God.
I like the principle of your definition ... except I am having a hard time finding the word "invisible" in the Bible. The RCC fundamentally accepts your definition, except they too, I suspect, would have a hard time with the word 'invisible.'
The word church comes from the Greek "ekklesia" which means "assembly" or "gathering". But the church is more than a meeting place. And more than a place for believers to gather who profess faith in God or a place to attend weekly services. The Church is the "living temple" of the true God. It is not the building, meeting place, an organization or a denomination. The Church IS the totality of all true believers regardless of denominational affiliation. The entire body of believers IS the church and as such, it is the dwelling place of the Holy and Infinite God. The church is a mystery to some but understood by true believers.
Excellent, you have perfectly described the Catholic Church ... and this definition can describe Protestants.
The church came into its existance at Pentecost and was purchased by God with his own blood (Acts 20:28) and Jesus is the head of the Church (Ephesians 1:22,23). The church is the dwelling place of God (Ephesians 2:22). If you are "in Christ" and have God living in you (Holy Spirit), you are IN the Church as much as you ARE the church.
Excellent! Agreed.
All the denominations that were put into place well after Pentecost by men have done nothing to unite the body of Christ and have in fact divided the body into sects, with each one following another leader.
So, when did this commence? With the schism in 1054 AD? Or in the 16th century with the followers of Luther? Prior to this there was no sect or denomination, there was just one Church affiliation, one body, containing all the things you describe in the preceding paragraph.
Just because the Apostles laid some foundation stones for those in the true faith did not mean they anticipated the creation of the monsters we see today in religious organizations complete with a detailed hierarchy and filled with rules, doctrines, traditions, and other commands of men for the church to follow.
Monsters? I see the body of Christ.
Heirarchy? The Apostle Paul laid out the heirarchy up to Bishop. That is all the Orthodox and Roman Catholic have. Such heirarchy is Biblical.
Rules, doctrines and traditions? Galations 5:23 give a sample of the rules, doctrines, and commands for the Church. The Bible speaks of Apostolic tradition.
Commands of men? What commands of men do you speak?
Anyone saying that Christ gave them authority over his body to do such a thing is just deceiving themselves.
Given what the Bible teaches, then are you saying that the Apostle Paul and the other Apostles and Bible writers were deceiving themselves. Perhaps some detail is warranted. As you have defined the Church and its structure, your above sentence does not make sense.
The church has been in existance since Pentacost and will continue on until the Lord arrives to gather it.
The Bible never speaks of the Church being gathered before the weeds. (Yes, I know you didn't say that, but I am making the point for JWs who are focused on gathering the wheat, but who failed to gather the weeds first.) It speaks of Christ and the angels harvesting the weeds into bundles to be burned and then what is left is the wheat to be gathered into one place. The RCC and Protestants and Orthodox have always understood that the wheat and weeds are growing up together in the Church. Your sentence infers to JWs and some ex-JWs a scenario that comes out of the playbook of Free Bible Students, the Watchtower, Mormons, and other groups that want to believe that they are the gathering place of the wheat class. The Bible teaches at Matthew 13:30: "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye togetherfirst the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." So, how do we understand this illustration? The tares or weeds are first gathered into bundles for burning. The wheat is left to be gathered into Christ's barn (the church?). To help us in context, Jesus then spoke of the same exact Kingdom of Heaven in the very next verses 31 and 32: " Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."
Could it be that the greatest tree is the Church, and all the denominations are her branches? Catholic and Orthodox being the trunk, and Protestants being the smaller branches? But, like the field of wheat, the weeds are allowed to grow and lodge in the tree until the harvest.
And this will be done under the noses of those who claim they ARE the true church but cannot grasp the spiritual understanding of what the church really is.
What support do you have for this claim? Who is it that cannot grasp what the CHurch really is?
Thanks Jim for this thread to discuss this issue.
You're welcome ... and I hope that it proves productive.
For those used to the church systems, protestant, catholic, baptist, etc. it will be hard to grasp this concept for they have always been taught to look for an "outward" proof of the church (such as a building, denomination, etc.).
You are mistaken. No self-respecting Protestant would ever look to a church system for an outward proof of the Church or the "truth." These are foreign concepts to them. The basis for their existence is that they reject any church system as being the Chuch. After my JW years, I spent years with the Baptists, Assembly of God, Presbyterian, Christian Reform, and others. They one and all consider each other brothers and sisters in Christ. The reason for their existence is emphasis on certain Christian teachings. Roman Catholic accept that there are Christians in all places and denominations. Catholics recognize that the Church is scattered.
The real issue is whether or not there is Apostolic authority passed down through succession, or merely claimed by those who want to claim it, or that there is no such thing as Apostolic authority. Historical fact shows us that for the first 1,500-years the Church only understood that they has Apostolic authority. Such a thing you described as the "invisible" church, or the Protestant concept just did not exist.
This begs the question: Was Christ with the Church and did the Holy Spirit guide the Church as promised, or did God let the Church become totally apostate with the first disciples, and only a small remnant of true Chrustians functioned all these centuries? Of course we can see the implications. Groups like the Watchtower, Mormons, Adventists, etc. love to think of the Church in the latter way. They need it to justify their systems. Independent Christians, mostly of a Protestant style ilk also need the latter view to a degree because they reject successive Apostolic authority. Whereas Rome and Constantinople, the two great historic Churches believe that while apoastasy did infect the Church, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit protected the Church, and that Apostolic Succession is intact to this very day.
Which view is correct? That is the final question.
Or a place they must go to in order to be taught about God. In contrast to the fact that Jesus himself said "the time is coming, when we will worship in spirit and truth" and Paul who stated "God does not dwell in man-made temples". The truth is God is within all true believers because we have been indwelled with his Holy Spirt.
Your application is obviously meant toward Christian Churches, and primarily at Catholic and Orthodox. But, the context of Paul's words was aimed at Israel and its religious system. The rest of your comments are clearly as much Catholic as they are Protestant. To a Catholic, the House of God is the Church, which is the Body of Christ, which is the gathering of believers who have the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that whever two or more gather in my name, there I will also be. So, when Catholic gather, whether at home or in the Chruch, Christ is there. I likewise believe that this applies to Protestant Christians.
And it is that Spirit that teaches the church, not any man or organization.
This is where I can ask, how does the Holy Spirit teach believers? Does he teach us individually to the exclusion of others in the body? Or does he use all means, such as other members of the Body of Christ to teach us, which would include those with Apostolic authority?
If you read John 14 again, you find where Jesus taught them that the Holy Spirit would comfort and teach them and bring back to their minds all the things he taught them ... however ... the context was not specifically stated to all Christians, though one might make that inference. The context started in John 13, because teh event was the Last Supper! Jesus was speaking only to him Apostles when he made that promise, and not to the general gathering of the disciples. It is the Apostle Paul that wrote to the Hebrew Christians to get them to think beyond Judaism and how the Holy Spirit was teaching them. But how was the Holy Spirit teaching the Hebrew Christians to which Paul applied the verses from Jeremiah 31? They were being directly taught by an Apostle, namely Paul.
While the Apostles and older men have helped in setting some ground rules, we must continue learning by yielding to the Spirit of God that dwells inside of us. Again, the body of believers IS the temple of God or the Church. Peace, Lilly
The Apostles had far more to do with establishing the Church than setting some few ground rules. The Apostle Paul, for example, set the basis for how congregations would operate. When the Church had a dispute, the Apostles and Priests (Presbyters) met in Jerusalem to solve the problem. They did not leave it to each individual to wait on the Holy Spirit to lead each one independently. Rather, they wrote a collective letter saying in Acts 15, "The Holy Spirit and we ourselves ..." and thus the Apostles included themselves in what we being decided and taught to the Church.
Last but not least: The Church is a Body, thus nbot all are the eye, nor are all the feet. The whole body is joined together for a purpose. Some are Apostels, some are Prophets, some are Evangelizers, some are Teachers, some are Shepherds or Pastors, and so on. This clearly and Biblically establishes various offices and in order for there to exist offices, there must be an authority to appoint those offices. Hence, the Apostle Paul appointed Priests (Presbyters, Elders) in city after city. The Apostle Peter personally groomed and appointed St. Ignatius to be Bishop (Overseer, Epsikopoi) of Antiioch, and so on. There were women and men who were Deacons who were charged with responsibility in the Church. There were a variety of ministries as there are in Churches today. Tyhe RCC is filled with all kinds of ministries. Just look at Mother Teresa as a recent example, and the Order of Sisters she founded to serve the poor in India. There was from the very beginning both the Church as a body of believers indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and there was a Church with authority to appoint people to offices. It was all united and of one faith. This continued fairly well, albeit a level of apostasy and heresy that was fought off for centuries, but continued nonetheless.
I see both: Both the so-named "invisible" Church that is everywhere ... which is quite visible because it is made up od human beings who have the Holy Spirit ... and I see the Church functioning as a body, with all its parts joined together to carry out God's will, and I see a large tree of Christianity with many smaller branches, and the large supporting tree trunk called the Catholic Church which connects all the others to the roots grounded in the same faith.
Pax Vobiscum
Jim Whitney