There is a world of information on this subject at the following site. Enjoy!!!!
ROCKHOUND
rockhound
JoinedPosts by rockhound
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1914 and 144,000 questions?
by changtech ini was wondering if anyone knew some good websites that deal with these issues?
i am going to be talking with a very knowledgeable witness, who is allowing me to show my points about why i disagree with these topics.. so i need some well researched material to talk about!.
thank you so much :).
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From my tiny cabin in Vt. to each of you.. Merry Christmas.....
by Cabin in the woods inhttp://www.asilentnightmovie.com/
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rockhound
Thank you for posting that movie site. My wife and I thought deeply about those words set to music. A perfect ending to a very special day with our family. I felt the urge to go out into the silent darkness of the cold winter night and enjoy a moment of quiet reflection.
ROCKHOUND
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Need Help With Mexico/ Malawi!!
by Anitar inhuge news everyone!
i recently had a breakthrough with my mom.
we were debating last night for several hours, during which time brought up the mexico/malawi situation, which she of course being a faithful and blind witness, knew nothing about.
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rockhound
Anitar,
I did a little digging for you, and found some info on the Mexico/Malawi scandal. I hope this helps!!
I hope you are successful.
ROCKHOUND
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How did Rutherford do it?
by NanaR inback at the time that rutherford revealed the "new light" regarding the great multitude as an earthly rather than heavenly class, how did he manage to convince people to stop partaking of the emblems?.
i have wondered about this for years.
my grandmother was born around the "turn" of the 19th century to the 20th century.
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rockhound
Maybe it was because of a tried-and-true principle of behavioral psychology called the "variable ratio reinforcement schedule". Basically, people ( and rats) will persist in doing something, even with little or no return, if they are given the tiniest bit of hope of a coming reward. The "Paradise Earth" hope may have seemed more attainable than "Heaven"
ROCKHOUND
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"No one will be so foolish..."
by rockhound inthe following was found in an article ( jws and necromancy) by ken raines.
http://www.premier1.net/~raines/necromancy.html.
i found rutherford's comment in 1934 to be a major conflict with the present watchtower teaching about the 24 elders communicating somehow with brooklyn today.. on page 144 of the finished mystery they again stated their belief that the now "spirit being" c. t. russell was directing their work from beyond the grave:.
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rockhound
The following was found in an article ( JWs and Necromancy) by Ken Raines
http://www.premier1.net/~raines/necromancy.html
I found Rutherford's comment in 1934 to be a major conflict with the present Watchtower teaching about the 24 Elders communicating somehow with brooklyn today.
On page 144 of The Finished Mystery they again stated their belief that the now "spirit being" C. T. Russell was directing their work from beyond the grave:
... though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil,he is managing every feature of the harvest work.
In the November 1, 1917 Watch Tower they also said:
This work is conducted by the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, a corporation organized for that purpose by Pastor Russell years ago, and which, without doubt, was organized under the Lord's direction, and which was managed and directed by Pastor Russell until his death....
Hence our dear Pastor, now in glory, is without doubt, manifesting a keen interest in the Harvest work, and is permitted by the Lord to exercise some strong influence thereupon. (Revelation 14:17) It is not unreasonable to conclude that he has been privileged to do, in connection with the Harvest work, things which he could not do while with us.
Although we recognize that the Lord is the great Master and Director of the Harvest, yet we recognize thatHe would privilege the saints beyond the veil to have a part in the work on this side; and thus all the saints, both in Heaven and upon earth, are now given the honor of concluding the work on this side, preparatory to the full establishment of the Kingdom of Glory. [4]The Watch Tower, November 1, 1917 p. 325.Later in 1934,perhaps as a result of this, Rutherford wrote the following clear-cut denunciation of trying to communicate with Russell or any other dead "saint." He denounced the belief that the dead were directing the Society's work. This appeared in the May 1 Watchtower and in his book Jehovah. There he said:
All at the temple will realize that their spiritual food comes to them from their Teachers, Jehovah and Christ Jesus, and not from any man. No one will be so foolish as to conclude that some brother (or brethren) at one time amongst them, and who has died and gone to heaven, is now instructing the saints on earth and directing them as to their work.[9]The Watchtower, May 1, 1934 p. 131; J. F. Rutherford, Jehovah, (Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower, Bible & Tract Society) 1934 p. 191.
Rutherford may be correct in calling such beliefs "foolish" but it was he who had the Finished Mystery published that promoted the idea that "some brother", who died and went to heaven, namely Russell, was directing those on earth.
His clear rejection in 1934 of this did not end the matter of the Society itself, let alone those with the dreaded "elective elder spirit," promoting the idea that the dead are communicating truth to those on earth. In recent years they have seemingly "resurrected" the idea.
In the 1988 book Revelation&endash;Its Grand Climax at Hand! they say on page 125:
This suggests that the resurrected ones of the 24&endash;elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.
Thus they currently teach that the departed spirits of the anointed class "may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today" to those on earth.
It would seem that someone foolish enough ,did come along after all!!!
ROCKHOUND
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WATER WITCHING
by Mary indo you believe water witching actually works?
i had lunch with an ex-dub friend yesterday who told me that many years ago, when she was still a witness, her landlord's son came over (they rented a farm) and he showed her that it did work.
she had been fully prepared to say "ha!
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rockhound
I was using my backhoe to hook up a neighbors water line to the main plastic water line, that was somewhere under our driveway. I stopped digging about four feet from where I thought the main line might be, and decided to dig the rest of the way with my shovel so I wouldn't cut the line with my backhoe bucket. Just as I started to dig, one of my neighbors, who acted as our water line inspector, shows up and pulls out two small rods out of his shirt pocket, holds them out, the rods crossed, and he said "the water is right here". I placed a rock on the spot where he pointed and started shoveling toward it. The plastic pipe was 5 feet underground and just 4 inches from where he directed me to dig. I was sceptical up until then, but I am a firm believer now.
ROCKHOUND
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Great crowd in the first century ?
by ninja inare there any watchtower references to there being any members of the great crowd in the first century?...or were they all of the "144000" until 1935?
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rockhound
I found an interesting article on the subject of early Christians at the following site:
www.witnessinc.com/Topics/outnum/outnum.htm
These quotes represent the "hard numbers" of "Anointed believers" accounted for as of the memorial in 1935. The following gives the references for the numbers.
Year # of Christians Reference
33 C.E. 8000, WT, 9/1/81, p. 9 , Acts 4:4
95 C.E. 40,000 martyred WT, 9/1/51, p. 518
1935 C.E. 52,465 memorial partakers Proclaimers, p. 717Thus there was space for only 43,535 believers from the year 33 C.E. to 1935 C.E., a period of 1902 years. By simple math this means there would only be 23 believers per year in the whole world. But, the 40,000 martyred in 95 were only a part of the whole, but what part? If we consider that by the year 199 C.E. there were, by Watchtower estimates, 3,000,000 "Christians," and the "millions of tombs" in the catacombs, there must have been a huge populous of Christians. Also, in the year 95 C.E. the last of the Apostles was still alive, so the "Church" was probably quite healthy, considering the tremendous success the Apostles had in spreading the message. The Watchtower admits that by mid first century there were converts in every province of the Roman empire.
However, the Watchtower has speculated about the number of Christians during various time periods, these must be accounted for. I have set these up in the following chart.
Year # of Christians Reference
64 C.E. "immense multitude" martyred WT, 11/15/64, p. 698
199 C.E. 3,000,000 "Christians" estimated WT, 4/15/63, p. 249
284 C.E. 861,000 "Christians" martyred WT, 3/15/57, p. 166
33-200 C.E. "millions of graves" in catacombs WT, 3/15/57, p. 166
36-46 C.E. "myraids of converts" by Paul WT, 7/15/57, p. 388
64 C.E. "Christianity prominent" in Rome WT 9/1/51, p. 516
33 C.E. "constantly increasing number" WT, 10/15/87, p. 24
64 C.E. "Thousands of Jewish believers" WT, 11/15/73, p. 687
33 C.E. "uncounted thousands" WT, 12/1/59, p. 718
235 C.E. "numberless Christian victims" WT, 9/1/51 p. 517ROCKHOUND
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YOU GUYS!!!! Armagedon has already started!! Scanned PROOF!!
by Lady Liberty inits like the boy who cried wolf one too many times!!.
sincerely,.
lady liberty.
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rockhound
Hello again Fats:
On further digging, I ran across this reference, but didn't know how to verify.
In July of 1969, President Nathan H. Knorr addressed 81,000 Witnesses at Dodger Field in Los Angeles. "Why are we looking forward to 1975?" he asked. And then he answered his question by stating, "It is firmly maintained that by the autumn of the year 1975, the battle of Armageddon will have been fought and God's new world will have been established" (Los Angeles Herald Examiner, July 21, 1969).
I hope this helps.
ROCKHOUND
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YOU GUYS!!!! Armagedon has already started!! Scanned PROOF!!
by Lady Liberty inits like the boy who cried wolf one too many times!!.
sincerely,.
lady liberty.
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rockhound
Hello Fats!
"Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (W.T. pg.494 Aug. 15 1968)…Now it is firmly maintained that by the autumn of the year 1975 thebattle of Armageddon will have been fought and God’s new world will have been established."
I just found your post tonight, as I've been out of town. I found this quote on the "Let Us Reason" site, and didn't take the time to double check the source and see if it was accurately quoted. I to checked my CD and also went to the actual magazine and checked for this quote, and I couldn't find it either. My apologies to all on the form for my oversite. Thank you Fats for bringing this to my attention.
ROCKHOUND
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They say "What does it really matter"
by rockhound in"can't you just forget all that old stuff and put it all behind you?
" "what does that really matter, new light has cleared all that up.
" "all that was before brother russell was enlightened" "if your researching all that stuff about russell, then don't waste you time" .
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rockhound
"Can't you just forget all that old stuff and put it all behind you?" "What does that really matter, New Light has cleared all that up." "All that was before Brother Russell was enlightened" "If your researching all that stuff about Russell, then don't waste you time"
It seems to me that very few Witnesses really care about all the contradiction and craziness that the Society taught as doctrine in years gone by. The above comments seem to be the tragic norm for Witnesses, and yet these same persons, when on Bible studies, will not hesitate to attack the different churches for their past or present misdeeds. Few notice or care when they are shown that the Society has a lot to keep hidden in its past, and present. Scriptural truths are rock solid, but the organization uses them like a piece of silly putty that you can form into one shape today, then twist a little here, and push a little there, and presto, "New Light", a completely different shape tommorrow. All of this is of course backed by the "Holy Spirit", so they say, until they get caught in their error, and then they slip into their "woe is me" suit of clothes, and yell "Persecution", and nobody seem to care or notice that what was promoted as "New Light" from Jehovah, was it fact just plain wrong reasoning from Brooklyn. The age of these doctrines in no way invalidated the material that was presented as "God Given interpretation". Some of the expressions used were "but of God", "absolutely and unqualifiedly correct", "definitely settled by the Scriptures", "no slip-up", but was proven wrong for the whole world to see. Maybe the Society's publications should all be printed in braille, but then again, even that wouldn't help those who refuse to "open their mental eyes". Does God's word or His revelations become outdated? Looking at the Society's past tense "Truths" is kind of like looking at one of those salt water taffy machines at work as it pulls and streches the taffy until its cut up into bite size sweets for the public to narf down. "My mind is made up", don't confuse me with facts, seems to be the usual response "I don't want to hear anything that would make me doubt or loose faith." Evidently "being in the Truth" has nothing to do with actually knowing the Truth, after all, "What does it really matter"? It's not the steak that's being sold, it's the sizzle!!!
ROCKHOUND