Posts by Amazing1914

86

The Earliest Trinity Statements

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

[note: i am not promoting a religion, a church system, nor a set of beliefs.

i am merely reporting history as i find it.

the early, ante-nicene church fathers spent much time fighting heresies.

Amazing1914

Inquirer,

First, notice that the Society left out the early Church fathers that I quoted. They claim that the Trinty was not fully developed until the 4th century, which is a bold-faced lie. It was fully taught by 150 to 190 AD. See the quoted Clement of Alexandria I put into my post. That cannot be discounted, simply because the Watchtower says so.

Second, do you ever check Watchtower source references? They often appear to be quoting from the early fathers, when in fact, they are quoting "opinions" about what these Fathers stated.

Third, even when they use direct quotes from the early Fathers, none of these disprove a Trinity. They are lifted from context, and have no direct bearing on God's nature.

I honestly don't have time at the moment to deal with these two Watchtower articles [11/1/91 and 2/1/92]. However, after Wednesday, I will deal with them.

Finally, Inquirer, I wish you could learn how to post in smaller font, with less space in between paragraphs. It is quite simple to do, and it makes your postings a lot easier to read.

Lovelylil,

The Bible quotes the Holy Spirit speaking in the first person, in the New Testament. The context, writing style, and meaning of the verses do not allow for an application of personification. Personification is largely contained in poetic books, such as Proverbs. Whereas the Holy Spirit speaks in the first person in Acts, which is not poetic, but a historical narrative. Personification is over used by the Society as "Proof by Analogy (False Analogy)" thus using fallacious logic.

A good example is found in Acts 21:11, where the Holy Spirit speaks directly:

And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that oweth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles." - KJV / AV At Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit speaks in the first person! And as the minitered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Separate me Barnabus and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." - KJV / AV

Jesus and the Apostle Paul said that the most serious is the sin against the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is a mere thing, a symbol of agent representing the Father, then it does not make sense that a sin aganist the agent (a mere thing) of someone is greater than the person whom the agent represents.

Jim Whitney

44

Comments from "30 Years a Watchtower Slave" that surprised me.....

by AK - Jeff in

i had begun to read schnell's book when we first left - but in the 'fresh out of the borg' mental state, i had found it too caustic.

now i am reading it and find it quite interesting due to the time frame - in judge rutherford's era.. one of the premises that he states repeatedly in the book, took me by surprise.

i would be curious if any could confirm/deny the reality of his accusations here.

Amazing1914

Looking_glass.

What I am saying is that people are quick to stand up and scream and bemoan the religion without giving the religion credit for certain things.

No one is bemoaning anything. No one said that the JWs didn't do some good, or that they do not deserve some credit. But if one reads the Supreme court decisions, one finds that it the big scheme of things, it is not all that significant. The JW claims are there, but they are over-rated. Useful and helpful, yes, but major or many, no. Since you disagree, then cite all the many cases, and let us read them.

No one is "lynching," nor is there a "mob" as you suggest. We are all adults just discussing an issue for which we have a different view. I stand by my experience reading the court opinions, and until I see something posted that shows I am in error, then I see no basis to change my view. I have no vested interest, so if I am wrong then so be it, and let's give th WTS the appropriate credit.

Jim Whitney

44

Is There Any JW Belief That You Still Believe In?

by minimus in

jw
friends

would you have any qualms about taking blood??

do you believe in a paradise earth?

do you think there is only one "truth"?

Amazing1914

Hades.

238

OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

by Gregor in

apparently, a large percentage of xjw's who post on this site have embraced some other form of god/jesus belief to replace the wt doctrine.

most of them fall into the "i accept the lord jesus christ as my personal savior" class.

they are still extremely attached to the old "forgiveness of sin through the shed blood of jc" line.

Amazing1914

Gregor,

Christian beliefs are no more bullshit than your self-righteous drivel. I was somewhat of a Christian agnostic for many years after I left the JWs. I highly respect agnostics because they are at least honest ... that is ... they just don't know, because they cannot prove it one way or the other. It is all about faith. If you don't have faith, then fine. But why do you think that you are on such a high perch so that now you can look down in a condescending fashion and have the right to ridicule those who do have faith?

Jim Whitney

238

OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

by Gregor in

apparently, a large percentage of xjw's who post on this site have embraced some other form of god/jesus belief to replace the wt doctrine.

most of them fall into the "i accept the lord jesus christ as my personal savior" class.

they are still extremely attached to the old "forgiveness of sin through the shed blood of jc" line.

Amazing1914

28

The "Sovereignty" Doctrine is Stupid

by metatron in

perhaps some of you had to suffer thru the society's latest special talk in which they rehashed the idea that our evil world exists.

because satan's challenges have to be answered.. .... but no one ever reasons on what a truly dumb idea this is!.

the dumb part of it is the fact that jehovah is said to sustain the universe, "making it rain upon the wicked and the righteous".. there is simply no way that god could be challenged on a "moral" basis since there is no way to ever prove that god.

Amazing1914

Metatron,

Interesting and good viewpoint! I like your conclusion that the Society really reduces God to a limited being on a human level. This is exactly what makes most of their teachings absurd. The few good teachings they have are basic common sense, and do not need to be taught.

Jim Whitney

57

Who here is still left from h20?

by GermanXJW in

jw
friends

i wonder how many here have already posted on the old h20 hourglass outpost-board?

it started to be a reform website and was one of the first sites i dared to register.

took some time for me to see the truth.

Amazing1914

Greendawn,

When I joined, H20 was already the hotest ex-JW board in town. Although, it was founded by Rick (don't know his last name) who wanted to find a way to reform the JWs. Rick was an active JW, but not totally happy with everything in the Society. So, he allowed ex-JWs on his board as long as they were respectful and so forth. What took place is that the board became dominated by ex-JWs. Then, in November, 1999 the Society came out with its infamous Kingdom Ministry which essentially prohibited JWs from being on line in such forums. H20 continued to soar.

Then, sometime around January 2001, Rick had to change host/servers, as his board was piggy-backed on another site that ostensibly and suddenly needed the space. But they only gave Rick a week to transfer his entire board out. Usually a month is allowed. There was some suspecion that the Society was behind the move.

Between January and March 2001, many of us waited to see how the board was going to do. Rick got it back up and running, but it was not the same, and he changed a lot of the features, changed moderators, and board rules. So, a lot of us migrated over to JWD, where we have been ever since. Eventually, his board died out and I guess he finally closed it.

Jim Whitney

57

Who here is still left from h20?

by GermanXJW in

jw
friends

i wonder how many here have already posted on the old h20 hourglass outpost-board?

it started to be a reform website and was one of the first sites i dared to register.

took some time for me to see the truth.

Amazing1914

I am. I originally posted as "Simply Amazing" then I dropped it to "Amazing" and registered here on JWD under the same name. Amazing1914 was an accidential creation when I was allowed to hold a second screen name for a period of time.

Jim W.

44

Comments from "30 Years a Watchtower Slave" that surprised me.....

by AK - Jeff in

i had begun to read schnell's book when we first left - but in the 'fresh out of the borg' mental state, i had found it too caustic.

now i am reading it and find it quite interesting due to the time frame - in judge rutherford's era.. one of the premises that he states repeatedly in the book, took me by surprise.

i would be curious if any could confirm/deny the reality of his accusations here.

Amazing1914

Looking_Glass,

" ... having studied law, the JWs are the basis for many freedom of religion issues established in the US. The constitional issues that still stand today."

I was not ridiculing the JWs for doing this tactic. I was merely reporting on the level of history to confirm what Schnell wrote. While it is true that protest groups today use such tactics to get court action, such as the civil rights movement, if one understands the claims made by the Society, the JWs are supposed to be neutral, and abide by the law as it is, and suffer under persecution. According to the Society, going out protesting and stirring up trouble is a worldly activity. JWs are supposed to not be part of the world.

I am currently back in the diploma factory finishing up some undergrad material in business. Then its law school for me. I work a lot with the law, but I am not an attorney yet. I have read all of the US Supreme opinions regarding the JWs. There are fewer than I thought, less significant than I thought, and Rutherford only sat before the Supremes three times. Of his three appearances, he only spoke once. Otherwise, he hired outside counsel to do the real work. No one denies that the Society caused some good by these rulings, especially the Gobitis case.

But, I would not go so far as to say that the JWs established "many freedom of religion" issues. They won two prime issues (and a few minor issues). The two prime issues are the right to not salute the flag and go door-to-door. These, in and of themselves, are religiously important to Jehovah's Witnesses. However, once they did this, then such rights were extended beyond religious application; hence, a Communist (political) also had the right not to salute the flag. And, businesses like Fuller Brush and Avon can now go door-to-door as long as there is a "beaten and unobstructed path" to the door. However, lock your gate and/or put out a sign, and suddenly, the JWs, Fuller Brush, and Avon have to pass your house by. Their religious freedoms and business rights vanish! Poof !!!

Jim Whitney

9

Official Secret Policy on Anointing

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

i suggest the policy is secret because it is not openly discussed anymore, but it still in force.

or better stated, has never been updated by so-called "new light.

" current jws who coem to believe that they are anointed sometimes find this article, and it makes them feel free to partake at the memorial.. it is the most compassionate, kind, and detailed article i ever found on the topic of how jws know they are anointed.

Amazing1914

Greendawn,

You raise a good point. I recall shortly afer I professed to be Anointed, the mother of the JW man who brought me into the organization asked me, "Have you received any insight from Jehovahs that you send off to the Governing Body." She was serious, and not trying to bait me. She reflected a belief that many JWs had at the time, that the Faithful and Discreet Slave (FDS: all remaining Anointed on earth) apppoint and use the Governing Body. The FDS is supposed to feed the sheep their meat in due season through the Governing Body. In Crisis of Conscience, Ray Franz reiterated this doctrine, and then admitted that not only does the GB not request information from the FDS, but they are suspecious of any who send in research or special insights from Jehovah. The entire concept of the FDS is a fiction than any JW could easily figure out if they wanted to do so.

Jim Whitney