Posts by artful

18

Are you confident about blood?

by eyeslice in

the issue of blood remains a tricky one.. personally, i think that the ot prohibition of blood is more of a statement of respect for life and in particular respect for the life of the animal that lost it life in providing food for man.

similarly, it was prohibited for a calf to be cooked in the milk of its mother.. with blood transfusions, no one actually dies and, therefore, in my view blood transfusion is more a matter of personal conscience than centrally dictated law.. undeniably though, it is clear that risks are associated with blood transfusions, particularly hepatitis c.. if an alternative were available, would you not choose this every time over whole blood?

would this not then justify the current jw stance?.

artful

Great article hawkaw!

SwordofJah: I would say that no, a blood transfusion is not consuming blood. Something that is consumed or eaten goes into the stomach to feed or nourish the body. A blood transfusion is a "transplantation" of a fluid tissue. Also, the comparison of the twins to a blood salvage "closed circuit" is not really correct. A blood salvage does not involve the passing of blood from one human body to another human body. A better comparison might be the direct transfusion of blood from one human to another. For instance if the twins had grown up and one of them required a transfusion and the other twin provided it for him, why would Jehovah forbid this, considering he allowed it in the womb?

I would agree with you eyeslice that the command was out of respect for the animals life, as their blood was the "symbol of that life". There was a good quote that read something like "does it make sense that God would want us to put the symbol of life above life itself". In other words out of respect for the life of the person who gave the blood (even though they are still alive - unlike the poor animal in Genesis) would God really expect us to forfeit our life or the life of a loved one?

Artful

8

Question to JW lurkers on 144,000 saved ones

by Gerard in

the watchtower organization states that through good works and sincere effort only 144,000 elite jws will go to heaven.

the 144,000 are mentioned in two chapters in the bible: revelation 7 & 14. by looking at the verses it is obvious that the 144,000 are literal jews of the ancient tribes with no gentiles among them (7:4-8).

they are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4).

artful

Good point Shakita!
The WTS also makes the claim in the "United in Worship" book (which has now been replaced by the "Worship the true God" book - minus the chapter this claim is from) that during the first century and for the next 19 centuries only a heavenly hope was offered to Christians (until 1935). That means that if you were a "true Christian" during that 1900 year period you were going to heaven.

Similar to the Ray Franz reasoning (but using more liberal numbers), if we factor in the 60,000 "faithful Bible Students" on earth in 1935, plus at least 10,000 who had died between 1890-1935, plus the at least 20,000 true Christians present in the first century that would leave us with about 54,000 Christians to gather between 100CE and 1900CE.

This means that worldwide, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were only able to win over 54,000 humans during an 1800 year span of time!! I guess Jesus and the Holy Spirit are really not that powerful afterall. Even the JWs with their pathetic door-to-door presentations can gain more converts than that in 1 month (worldwide)!

Also, with regards to literal vs. figurative issue: the 12 tribes and the 12,000 per tribe in Rev 7 are said to be figurative. But somehow, multiplying 12 (figurative) x 12,000 (figurative) = 144,000 literal....bizarre!

Artful

36

"Bible Students" and 1919

by artful in

a have a couple of questions pertaining to the wtbts and "bible students" from 1914-1919 and onward that i would appreciate receiving your feedback on:.

1. does anyone know how many "bible students" (jehovah's witnesses) there were in 1919?

i know that wtbts keeps such meticulous records of their "flock" now, but i have no access to material that covers that time period.

artful

Neon: Thanks for the posts of the Annual Report - it seems like you went to a lot of work to do this*. They are very interesting...for one, the name "Jehovah" is noticibly absent from these pages! Also, I noticed the number of persons they quoted as having signed the petition to release the 8 from prison in 1919 was "approximately a million persons". The Proclaimers book quotes this at 700,000. More Watchtower "higher math"!?

* As a side point regarding RAI's 20's WT files. If they are in PDF format there may be a simpler way to extract the information for posting online. If you have a photo editing program like Adobe Photoshop, you can open any PDF file, select the specific page you want, and convert it to a JPEG file automatically.

Cheers
Artful

28

WTS Cheapshot .....Jan 1st 2003 WT

by ISP in

most christians have to face grave problems during these last days.

still, they try not to be distracted.

in spite of well-publicized economic problems, argentina reported a new peak of 126,709 witnesses last year.

artful

I read through this article today and thought :
"Wow, it seems that we mere humans now have the power to "hinder" God's spirt from accomplishing what it wants...I guess according to the WTS the Holy Spirit really isn't that powerful afterall."

It makes you wonder if the WTS editors actually read these articles before they are printed?!!

Artful

2

WT............Humble or Arrogant?

by Smiles in

many of us know all too well how the wt hierarchy portray themselves and the wt organization itself as exceptionally "humble.

they often suggest that their "humility" helps to prove that they are, as a whole, the elite men of god.. the wt hierarchy is very dogmatic about the "humility" thing, to the point where openly doubting their great claims will harshly land you in the hot seat.. some of these wt statements are quoted below.

after reading these wt quotes please tell us if you think these things prove the wt hierarchy to be humble or arrogant.

artful

The Watchtower responds:
"Those of us who were chosen by Christ as his faithful slave, are without a doubt the most humble group of men on earth today!"

LOL
Artful

26

what to believe now?

by christopherceo in

this is my first time posting here or on any ex-jw forum but i want to know if anybody else is not sure what to believe anymore.

paradise on earth sounds great and it was drilled into me for 11 years, it's just kinda hard to shake.

what about armageddon?

artful

Welcome chris...hooberus summed it very well:

The only thing I would ad to his comments is to read what the "atheists" think as well. Keep your mind open to all ideas. Assess them for yourself, and don't expect immediate answers to everything. READ everything that you think will help you in your search for your own spiritual identity. Keep in mind that this will not be easy...but nothing worthwhile ever is (as the saying goes).

Also, a warning: The danger now is to look for someone else to provide you with a ready-made "belief system" or set of "truths". If you settle for this, it means that you have stopped looking for your own truth, and surrendered the most important part of yourself (your spiritual side) to the ideas that someone else developed for themselves.

Happy searching...be patient
Artful

Edited by - artful on 14 January 2003 18:21:38

36

"Bible Students" and 1919

by artful in

a have a couple of questions pertaining to the wtbts and "bible students" from 1914-1919 and onward that i would appreciate receiving your feedback on:.

1. does anyone know how many "bible students" (jehovah's witnesses) there were in 1919?

i know that wtbts keeps such meticulous records of their "flock" now, but i have no access to material that covers that time period.

artful

Danny: Thanks for your words of encouragment...I will keep searching. The search for 'truth' is really a journey that never ends, but then again, searching is really the fun part!

Thank you to everyone for your comments on this thread!

Hooberus and undercover raise a good point regarding 1919 - there is no scriptural basis for the appointment of a "faithful and discrete slave" (class or individuals) in 1919.

Firstly, even if Christ did "return invisibly" in 1914, there is nothing in the slave parable (or anywhere else in the scriptures) to indicate that there would be numerous "potential slaves" for the "master" to choose ONE from - the WTS says that when Jesus inspected Christendom's various representatives they were found wanting, however, the WTBTS was found to be faithful.

Secondly there is nothing in the slave parable (or anywhere else in the scriptures) to indicate that the "master" would wait a period of time to "observe" the slave (or other potential slave candidates) before deciding who to appoint.

Having said that, the WTS really seems to be placing a lot of emphasis (by repeated mentions) on this (imaginary) 1919 appointment in both the book study and Watchtower materials over the past year or so. However, I'm not quite sure why they would want to move the emphasis away from Christ's return (1914) to this "appointment" (1919). Although, I suppose due to all of the internal turmoil, doctrine changes, and declines in membership taking place between 1914-1918 they would rather focus the dubs attention after this "testing" period. Any other ideas?

Artful

11

Who is this Ted Jaracz?

by lv4fer in

jw
friends

i keep seeing reference to him.

i'm not sure who is he and what has he done?

pardon me for my ingnorance in advance.

artful

Tyler wrote: If you could fight anyone who would you fight?
...any historical figure?

I'd fight "Judge" Rutherford...

Cheers
Artful aka "Jack's smirking revenge"

30

who hated the memorial?

by Tyler_Durden in

jw
friends

was having a wee think to myself: this year is the first year in over a decade i won't be attending the jw memorial.

not that i'm too bothered, i remembered how much i hated it, how pointless, dull, & stupid i found it!!.

i could never understand the need for the great crowd to attend the annual meeting, it wasn't for us - & it certainly wasn't for our poor bible studies!

artful

Hello there "Mr. Durden": Fight Club fan, eh? I must say, it is one of my favorite flicks!

2002 was the first time since I was 5yrs old that I didn't attend the Memorial. I felt very much the same as you. It was nice to read the JW Memorial attendance in Canada (in the January WT) with one person less this year!!

Cheers
Artful

11

Anyone help me on this

by Iron Eagle in

hey folks .

over the past couple of years , ive been viewing so called 'apostate' material from one source or another over the internet.

i guess i have been leading a 'double life' as the jw's love to put it ; whilst still going to the meetings i was still reading things about the history of the borganization .

artful

Welcome to the board Iron Eagle: Thanks for sharing your story, I'm sure many of us can relate to it. The people here have been a real goldmine during my quest to "rebuild" my Bible knowledge. I won't repeat what has been said on the other threads. But please check them out as there is a lot of very valuable information to be discovered.

UD: You make a very interesting side point about 1Tim 2:5 showing that Jesus has his Human nature while in heaven. I have never thought of the scripture in that way before - thanks for bringing it to my attention!

Cheers
Artful